Brexit: give me a positive effect... XIII
- Thread starter eternumviti
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Nick_G
pfm Member
"No more heroes any more..."
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Fintan O’Toole with weary resignation points out that actions have consequences even if Johnson is constitutionally unable to learn from past experience,
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ven-ready-deal-sausage?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
listen as the Prime Minister openly lies-
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ven-ready-deal-sausage?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
listen as the Prime Minister openly lies-
tones
Tones deaf
This is now definitely a worry:
https://www.ft.com/content/a7e0fc87-2994-44eb-bf6f-2110921c5832
If I understand Brian's approach (and please correct me if I'm wrong, Brian (it wouldn't be for the first time)), the EU now has the responsibility to be the adult in the room as the UK Government definitely won't be, and that the EU's current approach, treating Westminster as if it were a responsible adult with whom one can have a reasonable (and reasoned) conversation, even when this is manifestly untrue, won't work. This is tantamount to giving in to a toddler having a tantrum just to shut him or her up. It is also a form of blackmail, using my poor homeland and its fate as a bargaining chip. Westminster is willingly juggling with lit sticks of dynamite, and it doesn't seem to care (assuming, of course, that it actually knows what it's doing).
The thing that worries me is that the British have previous experience with two implacably opposed warring tribes - Palestine. And we all know how they solved that one - the British representative pulled down the Union flag at Haifa harbour, jumped into a boat to take him to a waiting Royal Navy ship and left them to it. The repercussions are with us to this day. Now Ireland is not in the distant Middle East, but just across the water, but it seems to me that, to the average English(wo)man, the Irish, especially the northern lot, are a strange alien species, of which they know little and care even less, which are a total waste of UK taxpayers' money and of which they would gladly be rid. I mean, they have to be ordered to do the right thing!
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-57921537
There are no votes to be had in Northern Ireland, or at least none that matter. Somebody please tell me that I'm worrying for nothing.
https://www.ft.com/content/a7e0fc87-2994-44eb-bf6f-2110921c5832
If I understand Brian's approach (and please correct me if I'm wrong, Brian (it wouldn't be for the first time)), the EU now has the responsibility to be the adult in the room as the UK Government definitely won't be, and that the EU's current approach, treating Westminster as if it were a responsible adult with whom one can have a reasonable (and reasoned) conversation, even when this is manifestly untrue, won't work. This is tantamount to giving in to a toddler having a tantrum just to shut him or her up. It is also a form of blackmail, using my poor homeland and its fate as a bargaining chip. Westminster is willingly juggling with lit sticks of dynamite, and it doesn't seem to care (assuming, of course, that it actually knows what it's doing).
The thing that worries me is that the British have previous experience with two implacably opposed warring tribes - Palestine. And we all know how they solved that one - the British representative pulled down the Union flag at Haifa harbour, jumped into a boat to take him to a waiting Royal Navy ship and left them to it. The repercussions are with us to this day. Now Ireland is not in the distant Middle East, but just across the water, but it seems to me that, to the average English(wo)man, the Irish, especially the northern lot, are a strange alien species, of which they know little and care even less, which are a total waste of UK taxpayers' money and of which they would gladly be rid. I mean, they have to be ordered to do the right thing!
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-57921537
There are no votes to be had in Northern Ireland, or at least none that matter. Somebody please tell me that I'm worrying for nothing.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
I think it’s not unreasonable to assume Northern Ireland is expendable as far as the current Conservative Party is concerned ( despite their pronouncements). Polling of their membership backs this up.
tonerei
pfm Member
You are not. It is a powder keg and the Eaton moron doesn't give a damn or I believe even understand it or the protocol or Brexit.
Neale Redmond was on Newstalk this morning querying why the UK gov are not championing all the advantages that NI now has because of their unique position because of Brexit. Financial services he suggests are growing exponentially because of Brexit but none of that matters to the unionists who are not interested in economic progress when all they really want to do is suck from the UK udder. The British commentator on the program outlined the proposals the UK are currently making are preposterous and can never be agreed to. It all fits in with the child tantrums approach outlined above.
tonerei
pfm Member
Maybe if Bojo is a great poker player this is what the game is all about. In some ways it would be funny as it would make a mockery of the Brexit lovers view that EU are being unreasonable.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
It’s time for a reckoning.
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
Weary resignation, my ear. Fintan is banking it big time. The longer it all goes on, the merrier he feels.
I recall that he wasn't quite such the EU lackey when the latter applied the noose to 'little' Ireland's neck during the Euro crisis.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Don’t worry EV, once the ‘foreign enemies’ excuses dry up, the self recriminations begin. If Covid wasn’t providing cover to Johnson, the natives would be up in arms. I think Nigel’s hoping they’ll take out their anger and head down to the coast at Dover to punch anyone making it alive out of the Channel.
Still, onwards and upwards- what will Frosty’s next move be- stomp in to see the bank manager and threaten to take his overdraft elsewhere?
Still, onwards and upwards- what will Frosty’s next move be- stomp in to see the bank manager and threaten to take his overdraft elsewhere?
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
What will Frosty's next move be? We'll, all the ducks are being put in a neat little row that points to A16. Then, if the EU holds its nerve (it will), there will be a sharp about turn, the UK will align with EU rules, and it will be presented as a great victory by Johnson.
That in turn will open the route to EEA alignment, but it won't be quite yet, and it won't look quite the same.
If Johnson holds his nerve (he won't) the NIP will go and the EU will commence its punishment of the UK, together with a sudden recognition of the viability of smart border technology. If M.Beaune of the French government is right, the EU will then implode.
That in turn will open the route to EEA alignment, but it won't be quite yet, and it won't look quite the same.
If Johnson holds his nerve (he won't) the NIP will go and the EU will commence its punishment of the UK, together with a sudden recognition of the viability of smart border technology. If M.Beaune of the French government is right, the EU will then implode.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
I dislike the tories but I don’t let it take over and get in the way of what I think needs to happen, which I’m not sure you did get so I’ll repeat. My approach is that it takes more than one side to negotiate. Both sides have done poorly right from the start though for different reasons. Both need to get on with it and put the well being of the people ahead of their agenda. It would be easier to fix with a new UK govt but that isn’t going to happen soon. Not only the tory voters will see to that, but those who undermine Labour will help them along.
ff1d1l
pfm Member
I think you're bestowing competence in the johnson administration where none exists. Brace yourself for not-with-a-bang-but-a-whimper fail, followed a return to the troubles. Honestly I can't see any other outcome.
This of course spun as a massive victory for plucky little britain against the malevolent forces of the EU, still we showed em, dint we.
tones
Tones deaf
Many thanks for the clarification. You are completely right, of course, in that it takes two to tango. I think where we differ is that I see the UK much more at fault than the EU, in that the UK signed up to the thing, initially presented it as a great triumph of statemanship, and is now trying to rewrite it. I guess this is my job background speaking - this sort of behaviour is totally beyond the pale (to use a well-worn Irishism). But then, when it comes to agreements, macro-organisations such as countries and large amalgamations of countries frequently get away with murder (unfortunately all too often literally). The trouble is, if there is a re-negotiation, how can the EU ever trust the Tory Government to keep its word this time?
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
I’m afraid the British rhetoric and threats to break the law might have sapped any remaining good will from Brussels. Remember Tory parliamentarians were calling not just for our departure but the destruction of the EU in the process. London is now as isolated as it was during Suez.
farfromthesun
pfm Member
Not sure why "negotiation" is still a word that is being used in this discussion. Both sides did negotiate, and both sides put pen to paper on said negotiated deal. That the UK now don't like what they negotiated doesn't mean that the EU have to negotiate again. It should be patently obvious that the issue lies firmly on the UK side; the allusion by @tones upthread of a toddler throwing a shit fit and the parents giving them the sweets, just to shut them up, sounds pretty much bang on to me - and many of the usual suspects seem to be oddly defending the toddler when everyone who's looking on know that it's the stupidest thing you can do in that scenario.
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
You've got a novel concept of what constitutes 'adult'.
What's your take on the fact the a vastly disproportionate level of EU goods inwards checks are imposed on the Irish Sea crossing, far more than even in the EU's largest port, Rotterdam?
There is a consensus on these pages, and in much of the press, that the UK government requested the protocol, was party to its contents, and was aware of its implications. I make no further comment on that, but it is clear that the (unnecessarily) maximalist enforcement of the protocol is having a derogatory effect on trade into NI, which incidentally is itself in contravention of the protocol.
The protocol is therefore not working, and I think all sides agree on that. The remain/pro EU side states that, as the UK signed the thing, it is up to the UK to make it work. The trouble is that, as it is, it doesn't work. The only way to make it work is for there to be some sort of concession from the EU in regard of its maximalist interpretation, but the EU is refusing to budge.
What do you suggest should happen now?
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
We don’t differ on that, the tories are to blame for that just as they are to blame for brexit. But that isn’t the issue now, what matters more is how to move forward. Having understood the agreement does not work, an EU refusal to take part in a negotiation of an agreement that does work is entirely down to the EU.
I largely agree with what you say, so we don’t have much to disagree on.
Tony L
Administrator
That has always been the case. The UK has no concept of how to behave in a democracy.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Not exactly. The tories...
I’m absolutely certain Labour would have done and do much better had people stuck with them.
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