Brexit: give me a positive effect... XIII

[TheDecameron]

You seem to be in a constant sate of pathological agitation.

Like the Express readership. CAAATT: Confused And Angry All The Time

 

[Kirk]

What I’m not seeing is taking responsibility for choices made. Questions like “well, what would you suggest/ do differently?” are simply irrelevant. Beds were made, it’s now time to lie in them.

An Englishman’s word is his bond…

 

[eternumviti]

Remember all that. What misery. Travelling to Holyhead and being looked at as a terrorist. Pulled over bags checked. Where are you going? British army and RUC apprehending my wife and I down a country lane with guns drawn. All because we drove in and out of a small town and then headed back to where we were staying. Crime was we had a Southern reg motorcycle and we were acting suspiciously. Seems like stuff from another world.

EU and Good Friday agreement got rid of all that. Brexiteers are back to future by moving forward and reinstating isolationism.
Meanwhile the Weatherspooners gulp their beer and read the red tag crap and get all angry doing fxxk all.
EV from the comfort of middle England waxes about a past that in reality was more miserable than anyone cares to remember.

Point me to where I waxed about that past please.

Let’s see how he feels when the Conservative and Unionist Party finally sells off the Province to Ireland and effectively back to the EU. He seems like you, unable to recognise Johnson as author of the Irish Sea customs border and instead is citing a conspiracy between Ireland, the Catholic population of N.Ireland, the EU and he’s even included the US government now.

David Trimble is a wiser man than you or I. You might consider that he may well be right.

You would perhaps object to the statement that the EU made the GFA possible. But it is clear to me and to many others that had the UK and Ireland not been part of the same Union, the GFA would have been impossible. The EU provided a framework where each side could realistically maintain appearances while getting on with the serious business of reducing violence, marginalizing the hardliners, opening borders, developing trade etc.

No, I wouldn't, not least because I've stated it myself, on these pages, in the past.

 

[eternumviti]

Brexiteers have to downplay/ignore Boris's 'incontinent mendacity' to keep die große Lüge alive.

Boris wasn't even born when the original lie began.

You're not going to last long in a snake pit if you're anything other than a snake. That is the single reason why Brexiters 'downplay' Boris's mendacity. It isn't pretty, and it isn't enjoyable, but it is almost certainly necessary.

 

[TheDecameron]

I made no comment on the intelligence of the former UUP leader, merely questioning his ‘they’re all out to get us’ perception of half the population of N.Ireland and governments of Ireland, the EU and US. Trimble is a member of Johnson’s party, he voted for Brexit and is now demanding that the protocol his Prime Minister signed, is torn up. It strikes me he has nailed his colours to a different mast from the one that helped bring about the GFA- the one of fringe Ulster Unionist and English exceptionalism.

 

[TheDecameron]

Boris wasn't even born when the original lie began.

You're not going to last long in a snake pit if you're anything other than a snake. That is the single reason why Brexiters 'downplay' Boris's mendacity. It isn't pretty, and it isn't enjoyable, but it is almost certainly necessary.

Ah the good old days when you were embarrassed by Johnson, you’d hold your nose and look away- now you’re endorsing his behaviour- ‘cos everyone else’.

 

[eternumviti]

Tell me, do you endorse Ursula von der Leyen's behaviour?

I think we already know the answer to that.

 

[TheDecameron]

Thanks for confirming.

 

[eternumviti]

Thanks for confirming.

Ah, another sly, twisty little interjection. What is it that I've confirmed that I haven't already confirmed?

 

[TheDecameron]

Johnson fibs. The Pope's a Catholic. Bears poo in woods. Tomorrow comes after today.

As in gerroverit.

 

[TheDecameron]

An Englishman’s word is his bond…

Apparently not.

 

[Kirk]

All this back and forth between the UK/EU must be frustrating for Brexiteers. Maybe if they accepted the trade-offs between frictionless Single Market trade and their purist interpretation of sovereignty they would find some inner peace. Take NI for example - why not just accept EU food and veterinary standards for 5 years (akin to the fish deal). That would cut the majority of protocol border checks. The EU would be delighted. The DUP would grumble but probably accept it. F- (local) business would certainly give it a thumbs up. The US would also welcome it (thus significantly increasing the chances of a US-UK trade deal before the end of the century). If Norway and Switzerland can do it so can the UK. This will require Churchillian leadership from Boris (who has, after all, already 'committed' to maintaining food standards). He would have to ditch purist Brexit. Populist magical thinking would have to give way to clear-eyed pragmatism. The unicorns would be upset but there might be a (small) pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for NI.

 

[tones]

I enjoyed the brief history lesson, even the somewhat contorted analogising, but I'm afraid it's completely irrelevant to the point that I made, which was that, in regards of points of entry for goods into the EU, apparently there are more checks on the Irish Sea crossing, one of the EU's smallest points of entry (about 1% of goods excluding NI, where 4/5ths remain) than there are in Rotterdam, the EU's largest point of entry for goods.

This imposition is clearly almost entirely unnecessary. I ask again, if I may, perhaps more clearly. Do you not think it possible that it is a symptom of the European Commission throwing something of a tantrum/toys out of cot etc., at the effrontery of the UK for having left its party.

In that context I think it's reasonable to consider again who the actual grown ups are.

No, I don't think that the Olympic gold for perambulator toy tossing belongs to the EU, but to the UK. Given that the UK signed up to the agreement and touted it as a great triumph, it seems to me that the EU, while not by any means perfect, is very much the adult here. I agree that it could indeed (and indeed should) be more forthcoming, but it should not subject itself to the death of a thousand cuts, given the obvious sheer lack of trustworthiness of the Johnson Government. And I think that the Irish situation is not at all comparable to the Rotterdam one, and requires much more care and finesse, given the potentially explosive consequences. I thought Rory Montgomery put it rather well in the Irish Times this morning:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...tocol-row-is-delicate-and-difficult-1.4628757

An excerpt:

It is not realistic to expect the EU to throw open the protocol for renegotiation. But – recognising that the EU has already shown flexibility – one might ask if its operation can be made less onerous. Must the movement of goods between Britain and Northern Ireland be regulated in quite the same way as trade between a third country and the EU? Critically, the political and constitutional contexts are very different. So is the pattern of trade, which largely involves shipping quite small mixed loads from British distribution centres, leading to a vast number of checks. And given the size and geography of Northern Ireland, major leakage of goods into the single market is surely not an unmanageable threat. A more risk-based approach could reduce the burden of regulation. Some legal changes to current rules might be required, but that cannot be an insurmountable obstacle.

 

[eternumviti]

Thanks for confirming.

You know, this is precisely the stuff of the playground bully. You mentioned the other day that you're retired. It really is time to consider growing up.

What are your thoughts on one of Archie Norman's M&S truck drivers apparently being currently held in Dublin port on account of a lone sandwich being found in his cab without customs documentation. He has, allegedly, been given two options. Fill in multiple pages of customs documents (in the correct coloured ink), or turn around. Not eat the bloody sandwich, or bin it, but return to the mainland UK?

 

[eternumviti]

No, I don't think that the Olympic gold for perambulator toy tossing belongs to the EU, but to the UK. Given that the UK signed up to the agreement and touted it as a great triumph, it seems to me that the EU, while not by any means perfect, is very much the adult here. I agree that it could indeed (and indeed should) be more forthcoming, but it should not subject itself to the death of a thousand cuts, given the obvious sheer lack of trustworthiness of the Johnson Government. And I think that the Irish situation is not at all comparable to the Rotterdam one, and requires much more care and finesse, given the potentially explosive consequences. I thought Rory Montgomery put it rather well in the Irish Times this morning:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...tocol-row-is-delicate-and-difficult-1.4628757

An excerpt:

It is not realistic to expect the EU to throw open the protocol for renegotiation. But – recognising that the EU has already shown flexibility – one might ask if its operation can be made less onerous. Must the movement of goods between Britain and Northern Ireland be regulated in quite the same way as trade between a third country and the EU? Critically, the political and constitutional contexts are very different. So is the pattern of trade, which largely involves shipping quite small mixed loads from British distribution centres, leading to a vast number of checks. And given the size and geography of Northern Ireland, major leakage of goods into the single market is surely not an unmanageable threat. A more risk-based approach could reduce the burden of regulation. Some legal changes to current rules might be required, but that cannot be an insurmountable obstacle.

Oh, God almighty, it matters not a hoot to anyone but Johnson haters that the thing was touted as a victory. I refer you back to my earlier reply to Steve on the circumstances of the Protocol's birth, and the Johnson’s location as between a rock and a hard place at the time. What matters is what happens now to alleviate the pressure on NI of the protocol's enactment.

In that context, I agree with the essence of the article that you posted a link to. It will require concession by the EU though.

 

[TheDecameron]

The Lone Sandwich anecdote. You’ve obviously never seen what happens at US or NZ points of arrival regarding those carrying food. My point though was about lying in high office and collusion with it -and it still stands.

 

[Kirk]

I read that Rushi failed to secure a deal for the City with the EU, and is now trumpeting China as the next best thing (echoes of Cameron and Osborne). The British bulldog takes on a dragon. Sterling to be replaced by the Renminbi shortly.

 

[TheDecameron]

I read that Rushi failed to secure a deal for the City with the EU, and is now trumpeting China as the next best thing (echoes of Cameron and Osborne). The British bulldog takes on a dragon. Sterling to be replaced by the Renminbi shortly.

I assume they’ll stop sending gun boats to the South China Sea as a sign they want to parle? Best keep Gavin Williamson and Raab away from them.

 

[SteveS1]

Steve, every time you post, I hesitate to reply because it would involve having to go around the same old arguments.

You sound like someone who says you always see the same people in the waiting room. You would have to go quite a lot yourself to notice. I assume we have the same arguments because the position is unchanged.

 

[eternumviti]

Yes, all a bit silly really!