Brexit: give me a positive effect... XIII

[tonerei]

What of course gets lost in all of this is that if Britain had simply agreed like many other third party countries with the EU, to align their food and environmental standards, none of this would happen. The great British sausage could have gone into Ulster without friction for ever.
The British tabloids are going full Munich- Chamberlain on it,
BREXIT minister Lord David Frost has issued a final ultimatum to the EU, warning Brussels to "think carefully" over his fresh proposal.

This is simply it. But our non Brexiteer just reads the headline and blames the EU. What's sad is that is what most of the Brexit supporters will do. There is no depth of thought. They all row in behind the one liner. It is all so simple if the EU were not so stubborn. It is so easy to fool these people but to be fair they want to be fooled. Even Brian who is not a Tory supporter buys in to charade.

 

[tones]

The EU is responsible for refusing to re-negotiate an agreement that does not work, risking big problems in N.Ireland. Before you cry out, “why should they re-negotiate a deal the UK said was oven ready and fantastic”, they should do so because they claim to care about the people of N.Ireland. Until they prove it, to someone not fixated with the EU, it looks more like they care about their project and about punishing the UK for its people daring to vote leave in a democratic referendum.

But, Brian, do you not think that since it's the UK that caused the problem, it should be the one taking the lead at coming up with acceptable solutions? An interesting article in today's FT puts it rather well:

https://www.ft.com/content/7ee27e99-1f13-4ca3-a7da-93248a32c078

Some excerpts:

The strategy — if that is the right word for a decision to renege on the terms of an international treaty — is to do nothing. The government has rejected a Brussels proposal that would remove the need for most controls by aligning UK food and veterinary standards with those of the EU. Instead it will just stall, refusing to put in place agreed border checks. More than that, the UK also proposes to tear up the provisions that afford a role for EU institutions in oversight of trade across the Irish Sea. These were negotiated by Lord David Frost, the present Brexit minister. The same Frost this week declared them to be an affront to UK sovereignty.
...

The prime minister is unimpressed by Foreign Office concern that his hardline approach will upset the relationship with the US. President Joe Biden is mindful of his Irish heritage. And the White House has a significant stake in the Belfast accord. Johnson, insiders say, is unconcerned. He has Churchillian pretensions. During his spell as foreign secretary a few years ago, diplomats reported he would spend time in front of the mirror mimicking the wartime leader’s mannerisms. He is not about to be pushed around by Biden.

There is a depressing madness about all this — much as there is about Downing Street’s handling of the Covid-19 pandemic. The government has made an offer it knows the EU cannot accept. Even where it is inclined to be flexible, Brussels now has confirmation that the UK cannot be trusted to keep its word. The danger is that Northern Ireland will pay the price.

 

[TheDecameron]

You do come up with some most remarkable claptrap, and a uniquely sly way of articulating it.

You cannot condemn Johnson as a liar without acknowledging the EU's own appalling relationship with the truth. It is a matter of relativity.

I've said it before, having a vicar's daughter dealing with that snake pit was never going to work. It may well be that even Johnson isn't snake enough.

Hostage child! You have got some bloody front.

I can imagine one of your customers brining wine back to complain how bad it tastes to be told “well if you think that’s bad you should try the other stuff on the bottom shelf”.

 

[tonerei]

Well, you just keep posting variations on ‘who signed the agreement’. What is your solution? Sorry if I missed it. Is it to rejoin the EU? Is it whatever you define as a soft brexit? If so, it’s interesting how the effect of years of effort of hard remainers to cancel brexit rather than accept a soft brexit is forgotten about and ignored here.

Let’s nail this blame thing in the hope for less of your own deflection.

The tories are to blame for brexit as a whole, aided in no small way by the LibDems. Not the EU.

For 3 years, the UK parliament had a majority in favour of remain so there really should have been a soft brexit. Hard remainers clearly have some responsibility for there being a hard brexit rather than a soft brexit. They spurned every opportunity for a soft brexit.

The EU is responsible for refusing to re-negotiate an agreement that does not work, risking big problems in N.Ireland. Before you cry out, “why should they re-negotiate a deal the UK said was oven ready and fantastic”, they should do so because they claim to care about the people of N.Ireland. Until they prove it, to someone not fixated with the EU, it looks more like they care about their project and about punishing the UK for its people daring to vote leave in a democratic referendum.

Why re-negotiate a protocol that is already a big benefit to NI? It gives them an advantage over the rest of the UK. Even EV recognises that NI is in an enviable position. With that benefit comes checks.

You call for the EU to re-negotiate but you have no idea to offer on what that might entail to get agreement.

Tones post above nails it from the FT. I am sure you will not see that and that is the problem. That is why Brexit happened. There are too many folk in the UK who just see the EU as the bogey man.

 

[TheDecameron]

It would also seem logical that given a majority of the Northern Irish population were in favour of remaining in the EU, their wishes might reasonably be consulted on implementation of the protocol which bears their name.

 

[SteveS1]

More than that, the UK also proposes to tear up the provisions that afford a role for EU institutions in oversight of trade across the Irish Sea. These were negotiated by Lord David Frost, the present Brexit minister. The same Frost this week declared them to be an affront to UK sovereignty.

Precisely. Try negotiating with that sort of stupidity. That is someone who does not want an agreement.

 

[Kirk]

It can't be long now before Brexiteers call themselves traitors for signing the NIP.

 

[Brian]

But, Brian, do you not think that since it's the UK that caused the problem, it should be the one taking the lead at coming up with acceptable solutions? An interesting article in today's FT puts it rather well:

https://www.ft.com/content/7ee27e99-1f13-4ca3-a7da-93248a32c078

Some excerpts:

The strategy — if that is the right word for a decision to renege on the terms of an international treaty — is to do nothing. The government has rejected a Brussels proposal that would remove the need for most controls by aligning UK food and veterinary standards with those of the EU. Instead it will just stall, refusing to put in place agreed border checks. More than that, the UK also proposes to tear up the provisions that afford a role for EU institutions in oversight of trade across the Irish Sea. These were negotiated by Lord David Frost, the present Brexit minister. The same Frost this week declared them to be an affront to UK sovereignty.
...

The prime minister is unimpressed by Foreign Office concern that his hardline approach will upset the relationship with the US. President Joe Biden is mindful of his Irish heritage. And the White House has a significant stake in the Belfast accord. Johnson, insiders say, is unconcerned. He has Churchillian pretensions. During his spell as foreign secretary a few years ago, diplomats reported he would spend time in front of the mirror mimicking the wartime leader’s mannerisms. He is not about to be pushed around by Biden.

There is a depressing madness about all this — much as there is about Downing Street’s handling of the Covid-19 pandemic. The government has made an offer it knows the EU cannot accept. Even where it is inclined to be flexible, Brussels now has confirmation that the UK cannot be trusted to keep its word. The danger is that Northern Ireland will pay the price.

Sounds fair but it takes two sides to negotiate and reach an agreement.

People keep saying N.Ireland is a special case and they’re correct, but not just from the pov of the UK. It is a special case full stop and needs to be treated as such by the EU. That doesn’t seem to be the case given the inflexibility and refusal to negotiate something that will work as it’s true the current situation does not work.

Take that first paragraph from the FT. I agree the EU should have no oversight of trade between the rest of the UK and N.Ireland. I also agree with the EU proposal the UK should be aligned in food and vet standards. It’s about compromise and good faith on both sides, neither should expect to get everything but it looksmlike the EU does.

Caveat: I do believe the tories are so bad it is likely impossible for an agreement to be reached. I think the reality is the UK needs a new govt to make progress with this and in the meantime it will be a struggle.

That remainer UK parliament really should have gone with a soft brexit when the chance was there.

 

[Brian]

So they should just capitulate and give Johnson what he wants. Reward the tactics of making agreements you have no intention of sticking to with a view to changing them later?

I wouldn't and I am absolutely sure you wouldn't, were it not Brexit related. There is no chance of a relationship with the EU while Johnson is there.

Oh and spare me the "concern for the people of NI" who Johnson has just played like a fiddle, ask Arleen.

No. It’s a negotiation, compromise and good faith by both sides.

Edit: More whataboutism from you at the end. You don’t need to do it. Most of us don’t rate Johnson.

 

[tones]

No. It’s a negotiation, compromise and good faith by both sides.

That's correct, but Boris Johnson is bad faith writ large, and he has said or done nothing to persuade the EU (or indeed anyone) that he can be trusted as far as I can throw the Empire State Building. He has, in effect, totally queered his own pitch. The best thing the Tories can do is oust him and replace him with someone with a modicum of honesty. But does such a person exist in the upper reaches of the Tory Party?

 

[Brian]

That's correct, but Boris Johnson is bad faith writ large, and he has said or done nothing to persuade the EU (or indeed anyone) that he can be trusted as far as I can throw the Empire State Building. He has, in effect, totally queered his own pitch. The best thing the Tories can do is oust him and replace him with someone with a modicum of honesty. But does such a person exist in the upper reaches of the Tory Party?

I agree. I said as much in #1448.

There is nobody I would trust in the tory party.

This is simply it. But our non Brexiteer just reads the headline and blames the EU. What's sad is that is what most of the Brexit supporters will do. There is no depth of thought. They all row in behind the one liner. It is all so simple if the EU were not so stubborn. It is so easy to fool these people but to be fair they want to be fooled. Even Brian who is not a Tory supporter buys in to charade.

I do not buy into any tory charade but nor do I buy that the EU is pure of motive, can do no wrong and must get everything it demands all of the time. The EU is an undemocratic ‘thing’ imo that behaves more and more like a ‘regime’ that will do anything to get what it demands. The good thing about it and the part worth supporting is trade, the chaff is not needed for trade to work for the benefit of everyone.

 

[SteveS1]

Edit: More whataboutism from you at the end. You don’t need to do it. Most of us don’t rate Johnson.

There is no whataboutism in that post as you once again prove unable to grasp what that means. An attidude to breaking agreements should be consistent, there is no special one confined to Brexit

 

[Kirk]

This is simply it. But our non Brexiteer just reads the headline and blames the EU. What's sad is that is what most of the Brexit supporters will do. There is no depth of thought. They all row in behind the one liner. It is all so simple if the EU were not so stubborn. It is so easy to fool these people but to be fair they want to be fooled. Even Brian who is not a Tory supporter buys in to charade.

To quote Blair (one of Brian's heroes), it's about "creating a politics of parallel reality, where reason is an irritation, evidence a distraction, emotional impact is king and the only thing that counts is feeling good about it all”.

He was talking about Corbyn (and his supporters) of course but the quote works for Brexit as well.

 

[tonerei]

I agree. I said as much in #1448.

There is nobody I would trust in the tory party.
I do not buy into any tory charade but nor do I buy that the EU is pure of motive, can do no wrong and must get everything it demands all of the time. The EU is an undemocratic ‘thing’ imo that behaves more and more like a ‘regime’ that will do anything to get what it demands. The good thing about it and the part worth supporting is trade, the chaff is not needed for trade to work for the benefit of everyone.

I think we all know you have no time for the Tories but noted. Bit in bold one would have thought the Tories would have realised that and gone for a realistic achievable agreement. Nobody disputes the EU is far from perfect and have made plenty of mistakes. But Barnier made every effort to get a realistic agreement with the Tories.

The hardline Tories, Dups, ERG, Farage and anti-european Labour party members help to deliver Brexit. Yes the remain side if there were enough votes missed an opportunity to try and engineer a soft brexit (Not sure they ever had the numbers). At least it would have stalled getting to this point.

The electorate in the last election unfortunately put the nail in the head of any soft Brexit. I accept that but recoil at the realization that their are enough (40-42%) voters who hate the EU that much. It is all old ground at this stage but your electoral system screws up any chance of compromise. Couple that with a Labour party that is split on Eu or Brexit. It is just game over, accept that and try and make the agreement work. If Starmer only had the courage to go after a re-negotiation to a customs union and see if that could garner enough broad support to win an election. Pie in the sky dream I think.

 

[PsB]

Sure, a time limited SPS agreement would offer a solution, but the hitch is in those vital words 'time' and 'limited'. It represents a further kicking of the can down the road.

... or the road to a reasonable long term solution. It wouldn't be the first time an interim solution served a few decades, for want of a better solution.

 

[PsB]

Precisely. Try negotiating with that sort of stupidity. That is someone who does not want an agreement.

And it's also a powerful deterrent to opening any kind of substantive discussion. Assuming for a second that a hypothetical renegotiation would reach an outcome acceptable to both parties, why would anyone think the UK government would honour the new agreement any more than the previous one? "The expectation has to be they would come back for more.

 

[TheDecameron]

Boris & Frosty are effectively cornered and they know it. They took on the EU which was precarious enough for their nationalist political experiment but when America entered the war, their goose was cooked. It’s a matter of time.

 

[tonerei]

Boris & Frosty are effectively cornered and they know it. They took on the EU which was precarious enough for their nationalist political experiment but when America entered the war, their goose was cooked. It’s a matter of time.

It is a Trump and Guiliani repeat minus the sweaty fake tan. Bojo has made so many bad turns as PM what's another one. He blithely goes on with his historic majority as if he is playing an ace game. Maybe the UK is just so beat up with Covid they just don't care anymore.

 

[Brian]

To quote Blair (one of Brian's heroes), it's about "creating a politics of parallel reality, where reason is an irritation, evidence a distraction, emotional impact is king and the only thing that counts is feeling good about it all”.

He was talking about Corbyn (and his supporters) of course but the quote works for Brexit as well.

LMAO at this latest invention. Seems you still haven’t grown up after all this time.

Blair is not my hero. I don’t have any heroes.

I believe that despite errors, Blair did better for the ordinary person in this country than Wilson, Heath, Callaghan, Thatcher, Major, Brown, Cameron, May and Johnson, that PM list goes back a long time. That doesn’t make him a hero, just a better PM, imo. YMMV of course.

Do you dream about Thatcher and long for a return to the great wrecking of communities? Do you quietly admire Johnson? Is he your hero, ‘Kirk’?

Do you see what I did? Two can play at that game...

 

[notaclue]

Sunlit uplands #1,782,353

From promises of Global Britain exporting cake and cheese and cake'n'cheese-flavoured crisps to the world... to keeping our fingers crossed that food doesn't run out https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...e-of-failing-meat-industry-says-idUSKBN2ER1TP