Brexit: give me a positive effect... X

[eternumviti]

In my own words (and based on nothing more than reading the press), the UK cut a few corners in its normal approval process to save a few weeks, as the situation was dire and BoJo was so very desperate to prove the UK is "world beating" once liberated from the shackles of EU bureaucrats. He was perhaps disappointed to have to use a German/US vaccine rather than a pukka world-beating Oxford vaccine, but nothing's perfect. As a result, some OAPs were vaccinated a few weeks earlier, undoubtedly a good thing as the UK is also world-leading when it comes to COVID infections and deaths. As a minor fringe benefit, people like you luuurved it. "So much longer" is Brexiter hyperbole. We're talking weeks, these things normally take years. By the time the UK and other large countries are done vaccinating their people, a few weeks will probably appear to be a small variation. By Jan 6, the UK had administered Jab1 to 1.3% of its population. The UK has also chosen to take qualified risks by spacing out the first and the second jab up to 12 weeks, maybe a sensible thing to do in the circumstances but not tested or backed by any data.

The EC decided early on to spread its advance purchases among 6 manufacturers, back when it was not so clear which technology would come up with a viable vaccine in time. Some pharma companies were very successful (BioNTech, Moderna), others are months or even years late. With the benefit of hindsight, the EC would have bought more from BioNTech, but back then it was probably a reasonable strategy. BioNTech has predictably blamed the EU for not ordering enough of their vaccine (frittering away money on competitors' vaccines, tsss, how could they). Additionally, BioNTech is having trouble ramping up production. I won't blame them or anyone else, the manufacturing and logistical challenges must be horrendous.

Germany's acquisition of extra doses in September was followed by the EU ordering an extra 100 million doses, and they are negotiating for more again. These total numbers don't mean as much as who gets what this week, next week etc, and the capability to administer the jabs in time (all down to each country: France got 500K doses in Dec and should get 2M in January, but the actual vaccinations have barely started). Germany has had trouble getting enough doses of the vaccine it developed into people, whether due to shortage of vaccines or lack of facilities to administer the jabs I don't know, and many people in Germany felt they should have had first dibs. The fact that the German government has resisted this sort of rhetoric and stuck to the pooling approach is to its credit.

All just so in a soft, fluffy, creamed potatoey kind of way, until your last sentence, a statement that is entirely contrary to the facts. Germany didn't stick to the pooling approach, because it went back and nabbed another 30 million doses in direct contravention of the pooling approach that it had both sponsored and signed up to. Sure, the EU went back too, afterwards, but then of course it had a right to under those same pooling rules.

 

[TheDecameron]

Britain left the EU, apparently took back control. Both the Tories and Labour ensured it would happen and both whipped the final departure deal. What I really can’t understand is why we now have Tory, UKIP and Momentum setting aside their ideological differences and uniting on the thread to expend ink on the failings of an organisation we have already departed. What’s that all about?

 

[eternumviti]

First point, not remotely true. Much of our PPE supply problems were due to idiot Brexiteer dogma not wanting to be seen to be part of the EU procurement. It cost much delay. The second point, so you didn't take your own advice - you were crowing.

I agree on the first point.

On the second, pointing out that the UK approach has, uncharacteristically, been more effective and efficient in getting the ball rolling is not crowing, it is merely pointing out what has, thus far, been one clear advantage of brexit. We've actually started to save lives, and did so well before the prevaricating EU.

Sure, it makes a refreshing change from actually, actively killing people, but we are where we are. Small mercies, etc...

If you want to see some crowing, there's plenty of it on this thread, no small amount of it emanating from yourself.

 

[eternumviti]

BTW a wine merchant not accepting the benefit of bulk purchasing - I have to assume that was a joke.

Bulk purchasing is an anathema to our business model.

But again, what has that got to do with the EU, one way or t'other?

 

[PsB]

All just so in a soft, fluffy, creamed potatoey kind of way, until your last sentence, a statement that is entirely contrary to the facts. Germany didn't stick to the pooling approach, because it went back and nabbed another 30 million doses in direct contravention of the pooling approach that it had both sponsored and signed up to. Sure, the EU went back too, afterwards, but then of course it had a right to under those same pooling rules.

Do you have good data showing when they will receive those 30 million doses? Until then, I would avoid loaded terms like "nabbed".

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Germany didn't stick to the pooling approach, because it went back and nabbed another 30 million doses in direct contravention of the pooling approach that it had both sponsored and signed up to. Sure, the EU went back too, afterwards, but then of course it had a right to under those same pooling rules.

I’ve not checked the detail, but are you sure the pooling arrangements precluded a party also acting unilaterally? It would seem an unnecessary restriction, and possibly counterproductive. I know that is grounds, in your eyes, for the EU doing precisely that, but is it actually in the terms of the pooling agreement?

 

[SteveS1]

Bulk purchasing is an anathema to our business model.

But again, what has that got to do with the EU, one way or t'other?

Seriously? Size matters when you are buying and selling. Or are we all better off buying from you individually?

 

[eternumviti]

Seriously? Size matters when you are buying and selling. Or are we all better off buying from you individually?

I don't understand the last sentence or the patronising wink thing.

We generally buy and sell wines from small, sometimes very small, family producers who are interested in quality, not quantity. The quantities involved and available are often quite minuscule, just a few cases of this wine, a few cases of that. Quantity isn't an issue except in that there is often not enough of it. Size is considered to be a bad thing at this end of the market.

Again, what does this have to do with the EU? What would it have to do with the EU if we were bulk buyers, for that matter?

 

[TheDecameron]

The political lie repeated by the Party ( like the ‘Sir’ again on last night’s Newsnight ) that only Brexit meant we could vaccinate quickly is one of the more contemptible lies they’ve told, compounded by repeating it even when it has been demonstrated to be false, then amplified here by someone simply too ignorant of these matters to appreciate how exposing it is.

 

[SteveS1]

I don't understand the last sentence or the patronising wink thing.

OK fvck it, you're determined to be obtuse for a change, a larger market gets better terms than a smaller one. Does that penetrate?

 

[SteveS1]

I don't understand the last sentence or the patronising wink thing.

We generally buy and sell wines from small, sometimes very small, family producers who are interested in quality, not quantity. The quantities involved and available are often quite minuscule, just a few cases of this wine, a few cases of that. Quantity isn't an issue except in that there is often not enough of it. Size is considered to be a bad thing at this end of the market.

Again, what does this have to do with the EU? What would it have to do with the EU if we were bulk buyers, for that matter?

So you are the BMW not the Nissan of the wine trade. Nothing wrong with that but that isn't how the bulk of stuff works and the UK is often not about quality. Size matters.

 

[TheDecameron]

OK fvck it, you're determined to be obtuse for a change, a larger market gets better terms than a smaller one. Does that penetrate?

This gave the lie to it-

“Quantity isn't an issue except in that there is often not enough of it”

 

[Seanm]

How do you explain the relative lack of enthusiasm for voting Labour in this very group? Low educational attainment is likely to correlate with lower end deunionised work as you describe it,

If Corbyn was all over this as you put it, why were his achievements so ineffectual!

I don't know how useful it is to use education as a proxy for age in this case, or for working conditions: precariousness increasingly affects not just those leaving school with A levels but also graduates. We can just go straight to age:

Which both gives the lie to the idea that Corbyn didn't manage to engage this group and explains, in broad strokes why he wasn't able to convert that into election success: older people came out in force to fck over their children and grandchildren.

But now, having asked a question about Labour, are you going to accuse me again of derailing the thread?

 

[TheDecameron]

I don't know how useful it is to use education as a proxy for age in this case, or for working conditions: precariousness increasingly affects not just those leaving school with A levels but also graduates. We can just go straight to age:

Which both gives the lie to the idea that Corbyn didn't manage to engage this group and explains, in broad strokes why he wasn't able to convert that into election success: older people came out in force to fck over their children and grandchildren.

But now, having asked a question about Labour, are you going to accuse me again of derailing the thread?

What I’m most curious about is your position tied to the mast of Brexit which you acknowledged yourself at the outset would damage the living standards of the less well off. You’ve actually posted in the past days, stuff that could have been written by EV. The new confluence with Tory and UKIP contributors to this discussion fascinates me.

 

[Seanm]

What I’m most curious about is your position tied to the mast of Brexit which you acknowledged yourself at the outset would damage the living standards of the less well off. You’ve actually posted in the past days, stuff that could have been written by EV. The new confluence with Tory and UKIP contributors to this discussion fascinates me.

I think that's a perspectival trick, TBH.

 

[Brian]

They do exist. The Lib-Dems promised to revoke A50 without a referendum at the last election and got 3.7 million votes (over 10% of the total). That's a significant anti-democratic, hard-Remain rump, even if not all Lib-Dem voters were comfortable with that policy.

There were certainly people on this forum who defended the Lib-Dem position. I remember it vividly because it was the most upsetting moment of the entire election campaign for me - the moment I knew that all was lost, and that we were condemned to at least five more years of far-right Tory government and a hard Brexit.

In any case, my definition of a "hard Remainer" would be a little broader. Some people voted Remain in 2016 and got on with the rest of their lives when the referendum result was announced; others spent four years complaining about the result and fighting it any way they could. The latter are hard Remainers (degree of hardness varies). And a lot of the former voted to "Get Brexit Done" because they were fed up of the latter.

That is exactly how I define hard remainer. I’ve said many times there has to be a way of separating the 2 types of remain voter you describe above.

Funny how the only people who complain about the term tend to be one of them, obviously a bit of shame going on there but not enough as far as I’m concerned.

 

[ff1d1l]

I think that's a perspectival trick, TBH.

My perspective too.

 

[SteveS1]

That is exactly how I define hard remainer. I’ve said many times there has to be a way of separating the 2 types of remain voter you describe above.

Funny how the only people who complain about the term tend to be one of them, obviously a bit of shame going on there but not enough as far as I’m concerned.

Have you managed to find any examples of people here suggesting the 2016 referendum be overturned without a vote?

 

[notaclue]

Two weeks in and the stink of Brexit is overwhelming. Everyone who championed Brexit should feel deep, deep shame.*

"Barnier tells FT, he offered UK special travel rights for journalists, musicians, artists in deal talks but Frost, presumably on orders from Johnson terrified of DTel/Mail/IDS etc turned them down." https://twitter.com/DenisMacShane/status/1349702663835963394

"I am writing to you as the second week of 2021 draws to a close, and our industry is facing mounting financial losses. Many fishing vessels are tied to the quay wall. Of the others that can go to sea, some are now making a 72-hour round trip to land fish in Denmark, as the only way to guarantee that their catch will make a fair price and actually find its way to market while still fresh enough to meet customer demands." https://www.sff.co.uk/letter-to-prime-minister-from-sff-chief-executive/

"Last week wasn't much to write home about as it was very quiet, but volumes are building and it's just going to get worse. Exports are grinding to a halt and that will affect imports, but if you are a haulier. you don't want to get a lorry stuck on this side of the Channel." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55680315

* Of course, they are all such awful people they won't feel any shame at all.

 

[Brian]

Have you managed to find any examples of people here suggesting the 2016 referendum be overturned without a vote?

You doing that thing you do again of ignoring the point.

Sadly, I haven’t looked, tbh, I’m not doing your searches for you, if you’ve missed them what it shows is you haven’t been paying attention. Or maybe you don’t understand. You’ve also missed the numerous times I’ve mentioned Parliament, Die Hard Remainers don’t exist only in this thread. That would be silly.