Brexit: give me a positive effect... VII

[TheDecameron]

Yup, this has been a major concern since Brexit became a thing in 2016. There are various key databases (Schengen II, ECRIS, Eurodac being the main ones), plus Europol, the data exchanges under the Prum Treaty, the advance passenger information from air carriers, and no doubt others, that are all vital for the smooth and efficient running of cross-border law enforcement, national security, and the like. A fair amount of the workarounds will involve requests routed through Interpol, or via intermediaries into Europol. All way, way slower than direct access privileges, and all no doubt subject to more restrictions on the basis for requesting access than hitherto. Ironic, really, as the UK has always been a mainstay of Europol and, until recently, its chair was a Brit.

Do you remember the blackmail used (then dropped) by Raaab as a minister in May’s government, that he would withdraw U.K. intelligence and security cooperation ? They imagine the EU has a short memory.

 

[tonerei]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54972671

Makes you think.....we could 'club togther', with other nearby like-minded countries and have a process by which people in said like minded counties could come & go, wherever they wanted / needed work?

That's a silly idea it would never catch on. Turkeys voting for Xmas??

 

[eternumviti]

How convenient! Except that's the opposite of the Brexit campaign. I don't remember seeing that on a bus.

A campaign run on the premise you quote above would not have flown. No wonder it needed the emotional response of anti-immigration bile and a stack of false milk and honey promises.

My vote to leave the EU had nothing to do with brexit campaigns or things written on a bus.

I know that your conviction that the vote not going your way was entirely due to racists and xenophobes is absolute. I would posit that had it not been for the 'project fear' campaign by the government that the result would have been quite considerably more in favour of leave.

Yes damn these people complaining about their country being trashed. Glad you are happy with it.

The country isn't being 'trashed', we're leaving the EU ffs. And there you were ranting about emotional responses!

AFAICT Brian's point is that the Tory enablement predates the referendum, and the thread of culpability he's going on about extends back to the Tory win in 2010. It might even extend back as far as 1979 and the introduction of Thatcherism, though, for all I know.

He has a point, of sorts, though I think it's a bit weak. Parties wax, and wane, and the 2010 vote was on the back of the 2008 crash, and I doubt many voters gave the possibility of a Brexit referendum a moment's thought when deciding who to vote for in 2010. It's certainly a bit of a stretch to argue that, if you voted LibDem in 2010 (as, for example, I did), you are as culpable for Brexit as if you'd voted Tory, or any other party that wasn't Labour (SNP included).

He's got more of a case in 2015, when the Brexit referendum was a campaign issue, but I'm still far from convinced because, IIRC, Labour didn't have much to say on the matter in that campaign. You can argue that as the result was close, more support for Labour could have got the Tories out in 2015, so LibDems and SNP could have tipped the balance. I'm far from convinced on the SNP argument, as Labour support had tanked by then already, and SNP are not exactly pally with the Tories anyway so would still function as part of the opposition.

The movement for Brexit probably dates back to Margaret Thatcher's Bruges speech in 1988.

If you voted for the Libdems in 2010 it is more than just possible that you voted for a referendum;

I have a book by Clegg titled 'How to Stop Brexit'. One can but chuckle.

 

[tonerei]

What the internet has permitted is the aggressive assertion of ignorance, in your case with depressing regularity. We see it graphically in America with their Trump brand of Brexit-style exceptionalism. Any facts can apparently be neutralised with alternative facts- in your case elementary arithmetic difficulties. Its as if you repeat this stuff often enough it’ll come true.

The internet facilitates keyboard warriors of that ilk to safely pedal their wares from a distance. Have heard that line before Oh yeah here and used by the Republicans and Tories very often as well.

 

[SteveS1]

My vote to leave the EU had nothing to do with brexit campaigns or things written on a bus.

Strangely enough, it's not all about you. Oh and if you don't think the country is being trashed, you are not paying attention. Or more likely are not directly affected. Brexit is but part of it.

You and the other Redwoods were not the audience for the misinformation, just the uncomplaining beneficiaries.

 

[TheDecameron]

My vote to leave the EU had nothing to do with brexit campaigns or things written on a bus.

I know that your conviction that the vote not going your way was entirely due to racists and xenophobes is absolute. I would posit that had it not been for the 'project fear' campaign by the government that the result would have been quite considerably more in favour of leave.



The country isn't being 'trashed', we're leaving the EU ffs. And there you were ranting about emotional responses!



The movement for Brexit probably dates back to Margaret Thatcher's Bruges speech in 1988.

If you voted for the Libdems in 2010 it is more than just possible that you voted for a referendum;

I have a book by Clegg titled 'How to Stop Brexit'. One can but chuckle.

EV, your fictional CO needs to find you and tell you to stand down, for you the imaginary war is over.

 

[tuga]

Thanks Ken and I’ll read it. However, I have to say my comments are made in the context of the people who have turned their back on Labour complaining about the tories. They need to understand the consequences on the wider UK of how they vote. That’s all I’m saying. It’s not at all controversial.

I’m not a member of the Labour party, nor even an habitual Labour voter so why Scots have turned to nationalism is interesting but it doesn’t really have anything to do with my point.

Labour brought it upon themselves by electing the wrong leader and then supporting his fence-sitting stance on Bregshit.

 

[Colin Barron]

I'm confused, Colin. Presumably, this is a reference to Angela Merkel. What you seem to be saying is that Germany calls the shots in the EU, and thus was never going to do a deal which wasn't in its own interests? Please correct me if I've misunderstood.

So, it follows that you're arguing that the UK was never going to make a good deal with the EU, unless that was also in Germany's interests. But you, and others, have long maintained that a) the prospect of a better deal for the UK was a key reason for Brexit in the first place, and b) this was pretty much a given. How can that be the case, as your stance on Germany's power in the EU is at least as old as your stance on the prospects of a UK deal?

For all the French talk of no deal i don't think it would have come to that but Germany will ensure smooth passage of trade no matter what happens although that is not to say they will not expect compromise from the UK. Covid, the MFF plus grants and loans are not agreed and the increased German financial commitment all add to extra German leverage to ensure business as usual (for them anyway).

 

[sean99]

For all the French talk of no deal i don't think it would have come to that but Germany will ensure smooth passage of trade no matter what happens although that is not to say they will not expect compromise from the UK.

The UK accounts for 6% of German exports.
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports-by-country

The EU represents 43% of UK exports.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7851/

I don't think Germany will be so bothered about smooth trading with the UK, especially as the UK has become about 20% poorer in international terms over the past 5 years due to the Brexit induced devaluation of the pound. ($1.60 to $1.30).

 

[tuga]

 

[Enfield boy]

It helps to be of a certain age and a fan of chocolate!

 

[Brian]

So, no answer then.

Spot on. Well done, you.

What the internet has permitted is the aggressive assertion of ignorance, in your case with depressing regularity. We see it graphically in America with their Trump brand of Brexit-style exceptionalism. Any facts can apparently be neutralised with alternative facts- in your case elementary arithmetic difficulties. Its as if you repeat this stuff often enough it’ll come true.

You are obsessed with Trump. As he’s a rather vile nationalist you obviously have him as a role model.

So what arithmetic difficulty am I suffering? It appears you don’t understand 41 is greater than 1 so best sort yourself out before concerning yourself with me.

 

[Stunsworth]

Majority of EU citizens feel good about the bloc, and support in the UK hits an all time high...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...u-population-feel-good-about-bloc-study-finds

 

[TheDecameron]

Spot on. Well done, you.


You are obsessed with Trump. As he’s a rather vile nationalist you obviously have him as a role model.

So what arithmetic difficulty am I suffering? It appears you don’t understand 41 is greater than 1 so best sort yourself out before concerning yourself with me.

Brian, do us a favour.

 

[Brian]

AFAICT Brian's point is that the Tory enablement predates the referendum, and the thread of culpability he's going on about extends back to the Tory win in 2010. It might even extend back as far as 1979 and the introduction of Thatcherism, though, for all I know.

...

I stopped reading at that point.

Anyway, fine. So we’ve established you and other members see no significance in the 2015 GE, which ended with 1 seat for Labour in Scotland down from 41 after 5 years of austerity and with a referendum on EU membership in the tory manifesto.
What better if you want to remain in the EU, and don’t agree with austerity than to take seats away from the tory opposition at such a time? I reckon the tories couldn’t believe their luck. I really can’t think of much worse apart from actually returning seats for the tories, yet apparently I have arithmetic issues.

I guess you can always carry on wagging your finger at those pesky northern racists while crying a lot about what those horrible tories have done. I hope it makes you feel better.

 

[Brian]

Brian, do us a favour.

You first, Hugh.

 

[Colin Barron]

The UK accounts for 6% of German exports.
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports-by-country

The EU represents 43% of UK exports.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7851/

I don't think Germany will be so bothered about smooth trading with the UK, especially as the UK has become about 20% poorer in international terms over the past 5 years due to the Brexit induced devaluation of the pound. ($1.60 to $1.30).

We don't lave long to wait to find out who is correct. From memory 16% of car exports are to the UK. About 12% of GDP is exported to the EU.

 

[TheDecameron]

The UK accounts for 6% of German exports.
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports-by-country

The EU represents 43% of UK exports.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7851/

I don't think Germany will be so bothered about smooth trading with the UK, especially as the UK has become about 20% poorer in international terms over the past 5 years due to the Brexit induced devaluation of the pound. ($1.60 to $1.30).

General rule in business is that you don’t invest in small and medium declining markets but in large, high growth markets. Hello China! Hello Mercedes! So it’s rather depressing how much the “they need us more than we need them/ we hold all the cards/ the German businessman will have a word with Merkel” is still clung onto by the faithful.

Of course when you knock that one on the head another one pops up, like this weeks special- fish.

 

[Colin Barron]

General rule in business is that you don’t invest in small and medium declining markets but in large, high growth markets. Hello China! Hello Mercedes! So it’s rather depressing how much the “they need us more than we need them/ we hold all the cards/ the German businessman will have a word with Merkel” is still clung onto by the faithful.

Of course when you knock that one on the head another one pops up, like this weeks special- fish.

What is your Brexit prediction Hugh?

 

[TheDecameron]

They’ll hang another monkey in Hartlepool when it goes tits up. Farage he happy or he unhappy.