Brexit: give me a positive effect... IX

[SteveS1]

In my opinion, demanding the outcome of the referendum be ignored and the UK remain in the EU despite a majority vote for something else shows a lack of respect for others and a lack respect for democracy. It is a characteristic of hard remainers.

This is your usual straw man and goes to the heart of your constant evasion and deception. Point us to where anyone has said the outcome of the 2016 Referendum should just be ignored. Plenty of people believe the Leave campaign to have been flawed and foreign funded, these are matters of record - the comparison with Trump and his false allegations of voter fraud is your attempt at a smear.

There are many here, myself included, who believe that the public should have had a vote on the outcome, the reality and not the fantasy promises. That is not a lack of respect for democracy, it is more democracy, but I can well understand why a Leaver having secured a narrow win on totally false promises might want to avoid a vote on the actuality. If they were confident of course, they would be all over the idea, but they know full well the lies wouldn't stand comparison with the results.

 

[ff1d1l]

I’m in a group that respects a democratic vote and you say it’s a worse one. ha ha ha

It wasn't a democratic vote. 17.5 of 68 isn't.
Let alone overseas brits who were disenefranchised.

 

[Tony L]

In my opinion, demanding the outcome of the referendum be ignored and the UK remain in the EU despite a majority vote for something else shows a lack of respect for others and a lack respect for democracy. It is a characteristic of hard remainers.

Though this is your deluded fantasy of a mythical ‘hard remain’ position as no one was actually saying that! Those of us on the remain side simply want to highlight the utter economic and social catastrophe of Brexit and find a way to, with public consent, reverse out of a situation that will so clearly make us all (especially those with the least) vastly poorer, both financially and in liberty, and deny the younger generations freedoms and opportunities we all took for granted. It is a disaster and as a Brexit defender you need to step up and take responsibility for your decisions.

It is clear public opinion will swing round to this in time as it is just reality. Brexit has no beneficial properties and this will become increasingly evident (assuming you are not amongst the hundreds of thousands that have lost your job already). I know I’m right, you know I’m right, but only one of us is being honest! Drop the Daily Express rhetoric and look at the evidence! After about 6000 pages this thread has still failed to find a single ‘positive effect’. In that respect it is a surprisingly accurate document on the ongoing situation.

 

[Hoopsontoast]

Brexit Dividend? We have more fresh(ish) fish to eat and more time to spend at home with our families.

What more could you want?

 

[Brian]

It wasn't a democratic vote. 17.5 of 68 isn't.
Let alone overseas brits who were disenefranchised.

Nonsense. Of course it was a democratic referendum.

Does this 68 include recently registered births?

As an aside, it’s interesting that Labour is popular round your way, very much ahead of the tories and quite close to Plaid in the last few elections.

You complain about brexit yet you voted Plaid and not for a second referendum in a seat winnable by Labour. You and your fellow travellers made it more difficult for Labour to win a winnable seat. This is fine, but just saying you had your chance to do something, ignored it then complain about the outcome.

You’re a tory govt enabler, mate. That means you’ve done more than me to enable brexit. I suggest swearing at yourself in the mirror.

 

[Weekender]

BBC News - Brexit: UK driver has ham sandwiches confiscated at Dutch border
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55622331
https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item...-dan-nu-aan-de-grens-met-de-douane-na-brexit/

 

[wacko]

BBC News - Brexit: UK driver has ham sandwiches confiscated at Dutch border
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55622331
https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item...-dan-nu-aan-de-grens-met-de-douane-na-brexit/

Shame it took brexit for people to find out they can get a better, fresher sandwich sur le continent.

 

[avole]

It wasn't a democratic vote. 17.5 of 68 isn't.
Let alone overseas brits who were disenefranchised.

Just as well, otherwise the vote for leave would have been even higher

Perhaps the next referendum should be on whether voting on anything in the UK should be compulsory; if not there should be appropriately heavy fines.

 

[Brian]

Though this is your deluded fantasy of a mythical ‘hard remain’ position as no one was actually saying that! Those of us on the remain side simply want to highlight the utter economic and social catastrophe of Brexit and find a way to, with public consent, reverse out of a situation that will so clearly make us all (especially those with the least) vastly poorer, both financially and in liberty, and deny the younger generations freedoms and opportunities we all took for granted. It is a disaster and as a Brexit defender you need to step up and take responsibility for your decisions.

It is clear public opinion will swing round to this in time as it is just reality. Brexit has no beneficial properties and this will become increasingly evident (assuming you are not amongst the hundreds of thousands that have lost your job already). I know I’m right, you know I’m right, but only one of us is being honest! Drop the Daily Express rhetoric and look at the evidence! After about 6000 pages this thread has still failed to find a single ‘positive effect’. In that respect it is a surprisingly accurate document on the ongoing situation.

It is not a fantasy at all, there are plenty of remain supporters who wish the referendum ignored/overturned, democracy undermined and they don’t care what comes out of that.

You may well be correct about future public opinion but only time and future elections will tell us that one. If people continue to vote in a way that results in a tory govt, how things appear at an opinion poll won’t count for much though.

Once again, I am not a brexit defender, I defend the fact we had a referendum nd the result is what it is. If you don’t get anything else I posted there, at least get that bit.

 

[Ponty]

Feedback from the field. The Welsh hill farmer I spoke to yesterday on my dog walk in the tipping rain was very happy about Brexit. He said last week the pretty average stock he sent to market achieved a higher price than his top quality stock last year. Demand has increased. Astonishing when many were saying they’d be finished.

 

[SteveS1]

Feedback from the field. The Welsh hill farmer I spoke to yesterday on my dog walk in the tipping rain was very happy about Brexit. He said last week the pretty average stock he sent to market achieved a higher price than his top quality stock last year. Demand has increased. Astonishing when many were saying they’d be finished.

LOL an in depth investigation.

Three things. Tariffs avoided, <£300m in subsidy being made up (so far) by the UK Gov and a weak pound. If they can't do OK while all of that remains in place, God help them. No reason to think the subsidies won't be maintained at previous levels, when did Boris ever renege on deals? Perhaps ask the DUP, the EU or the UK fishermen.

Meanwhile 90% of them export to the EU so with changes to our customs status/arrangements and the level of cost involved still to figure, maybe better to wait and see what this does for them. The people in this short clip seem to be slightly more insightful and forthcoming about what they depend on, than your pal.

By the way, the people saying they "were finished" were the farmers themselves at the prospect of no-deal. Now that you know that important difference, I'm sure you will stop repeating the impression that it was anyone else.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-farming-brexit-survival-threat-16754954

They have no reason not to trust Boris....ooops. COVID you see, not signs of reverse gear on previous commitments. I expect "COVID" will be getting a lot of use in forthcoming discussions with groups similarly dependent on the UK picking up EU subsidy.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/furious-welsh-farmers-slam-chancellors-19345524

 

[ff1d1l]

Nonsense. Of course it was a democratic referendum.

Does this 68 include recently registered births?

As an aside, it’s interesting that Labour is popular round your way, very much ahead of the tories and quite close to Plaid in the last few elections.

You complain about brexit yet you voted Plaid and not for a second referendum in a seat winnable by Labour. You and your fellow travellers made it more difficult for Labour to win a winnable seat. This is fine, but just saying you had your chance to do something, ignored it then complain about the outcome.

You’re a tory govt enabler, mate. That means you’ve done more than me to enable brexit. I suggest swearing at yourself in the mirror.

17.5 voting to ream 68m is in no way democratic, either in perception or reality.
I notice you don't engage with the democratic deficit re overseas brits.

 

[Ponty]

LOL an in depth investigation.

Three things. Tariffs avoided, <£300m in subsidy being made up (so far) by the UK Gov and a weak pound. If they can't do OK while all of that remains in place, God help them. No reason to think the subsidies won't be maintained at previous levels, when did Boris ever renege on deals? Perhaps ask the DUP or the UK fishermen.

Meanwhile 90% of them export to the EU so with changes to our customs status/arrangements and the level of cost involved still to figure, maybe better to wait and see what this does for them. The people in this short clip seem to be slightly more insightful and forthcoming about what they depend on, than your pal.

By the way, the people saying they "were finished" were the farmers themselves at the prospect of no-deal. Now that you know that important difference, I'm sure you will not repeat your distortion of it.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-farming-brexit-survival-threat-16754954

I never claimed to provide an in depth investigation, just feedback from the field. Look, I get that you want people and businesses to fail because of Brexit. I’d suggest those with the right mindset and attitude will survive and prosper whilst those who spend all day moaning about everything won’t.

 

[eternumviti]

Shame it took brexit for people to find out they can get a better, fresher sandwich sur le continent.

Not any more, Marks & Spencer can't get the supplies across the channel.

 

[SteveS1]

I never claimed to provide an in depth investigation, just feedback from the field. Look, I get that you want people and businesses to fail because of Brexit. I’d suggest those with the right mindset and attitude will survive and prosper whilst those who spend all day moaning about everything won’t.

It isn't a case of wanting them to fail, it's more a case of accepting why they have previously been successful. Which people like you refuse to acknowledge.

 

[ff1d1l]

LOL an in depth investigation.

Three things. Tariffs avoided, <£300m in subsidy being made up (so far) by the UK Gov and a weak pound. If they can't do OK while all of that remains in place, God help them. No reason to think the subsidies won't be maintained at previous levels, when did Boris ever renege on deals? Perhaps ask the DUP, the EU or the UK fishermen.

Meanwhile 90% of them export to the EU so with changes to our customs status/arrangements and the level of cost involved still to figure, maybe better to wait and see what this does for them. The people in this short clip seem to be slightly more insightful and forthcoming about what they depend on, than your pal.

By the way, the people saying they "were finished" were the farmers themselves at the prospect of no-deal. Now that you know that important difference, I'm sure you will stop repeating the impression that it was anyone else.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-farming-brexit-survival-threat-16754954

They have no reason not to trust Boris....ooops. COVID you see, not signs of reverse gear on previous commitments. I expect "COVID" will be getting a lot of use in forthcoming discussions with groups similarly dependent on the UK picking up EU subsidy.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/furious-welsh-farmers-slam-chancellors-19345524

Presumably they are still getting their subsidy cheques, then? Hill farming doesnt add up without subsidies, which are set to go, and be replaced by a scheme which favours agribusiness.

 

[lagavullin10y]

Not any more, Marks & Spencer can't get the supplies across the channel.

Yup. And lettuce on a sandwich is a bad idea anyhow.

 

[SteveS1]

Presumably they are still getting their subsidy cheques, then? Hill farming doesnt add up without subsidies, which are set to go, and be replaced by a scheme which favours agribusiness.

Yep, I think Ponty's friend has yet to open some of his mail.

 

[SteveS1]

Yup. And lettuce on a sandwich is a bad idea anyhow.

There is never any room in a proper sandwich.

 

[droodzilla]

Of course I do, but that’s nothing to do with my comment.

What I said was...
They’re similar to supporters of Trump, who insist the outcome of the recent US election should be ignored and the Republicans should remain in govt even though a majority voted for something else.

Let me put it this way. What is incorrect about saying ...
...hard remainers, who insist the outcome of the 2016 EU referendum should be ignored and the UK should remain a member even though a majority voted for something else.

What I am saying is there is a general disrespect of others and of democracy that is common among hard remainers and Trump supporters. It’s not a nice truth, I’m glad I’m not in either group.

There is nothing wrong with saying that. It doesn't matter if you call such people "hard remainers" or something else. The fact is that they exist and they are a significant political bloc - significant enough to jeopardise any anti-Conservative coalition in 2024, should rejoining the EU become a salient issue in the next election. If I were a Conservative Party strategist, I would be planning astroturf Rejoin campaigns right now. The vast majority of Remain voters I know moved on years ago, and see people still arguing the toss about the referendum result as "crackers". To be fair, they would say the same about my political obsessions.

Your mistake was comparing them to Trump supporters, which gave your opponents here opportunities to deflect from your main point by (rightly, in my view) pointing out some of the many differences. Sometimes less is more.

A couple of substantive points... Firstly, the idea that soft-Brexit was never on the table is contentious at best. A motion to support a customs union narrowly failed because Lib-Dem and Change UK MPs did not vote for it (the vast majority of Labour MPs did). It was an indicative vote but, in a volatile parliament, who knows where the momentum would have gone if that vote had succeeded.

Secondly, there is a confluence of political interest between the likes of Farage, Banks, Trump and Bannon (they're all fascists, basically), but the idea that there was a dark conspiracy to rig the EU referendum is essentially nonsense. There was some misuse of personal data by various parts of the Leave campaign, and the ICO duly issued fines. Other ICO prosecutions were successfully appealed (e.g. Darren Grimes' Be.Leave campaign). The single biggest fine issued by the ICO was £500K against Facebook but the vast majority of the personal data involved belonged (I think) to US voters. Anyway, here's the ICO's latest (final) statement:

https://ico.org.uk/media/action-wev...2_ico-o-ed-l-rtl-0181_to-julian-knight-mp.pdf

which refers to this earlier report:

https://ico.org.uk/media/action-wev...ics-in-political-campaigns-final-20181105.pdf

Note specifically the conclusion that Cambridge Analytica were not involved in the EU referendum campaign.

Conclusion: some naughtinness, cynicism even but not a uniquely vast and sinister plot to undermine democracy. Use of social media to target voters does raise novel and concerning issues about democracy but those are best addressed separately, not being unique to the EU referendum. Maybe some hard Remainers could have a word with their old mate Nick Clegg, who is now paid a small fortune to shill for Facebook?