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Brexit: give me a positive effect (2023 ‘Epic Fail’ box set edition)

Brexit is not the sole cause of all the UK's economic woes.
But is does make most, if not all of them, worse for the UK than for the majority our contemporaries and competitors.
For no reason or benefit.
 
SteveS1 said:
Your new sell. It may be shitter here, but it's quite shit elsewhere. Well played. Good to see you can still manage a pop at those Germans too.

You might just consider that there is probably discussion on German forums taking solace from the fact that although the problems facing them are serious, at least they are not as bad as those facing Brexit Island.
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I just thought you might like a bit of light relief from the bash Britain thread. I do think 'folk' here sometimes need to be reminded that it isn't just the UK that is having problems, and that the issues that it has are far from all being entirely due to brexit. You know, even far away New Zealand is having similar issues - housing shortages, cost of living crisis, rising crime, widening gap between rich and poor, high child poverty etc. The beatific Cindy jumped before she was pushed. Nothing to do with brexit, amazingly.

Define for me 'having a pop at those Germans', and set out how I did so in such a way that you feel that you needed to highlight it as if I had committed a minor crime of some sort. Or is Germany still beyond reproach? Perhaps you'd still like Mutti the Great to come and be prime minister of Great Britain?
 
TheDecameron said:
That reads like so much of that self- referential Brexit paranoia. Prison camp guards, punishment beatings etc.
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Some of your posts are so abstract as to make me wonder if you're taking enough water. That is one, though I respect that you have a bit of a thing about prison camp guards, punishment beatings etc., and that you need to keep repeating it.
 
Graham B said:
It's all so depressing I have given up arguing about it (mostly). It was completely obvious it would be the clusterfudge it has duly become, yet some people still try and argue it's a good thing, or deny the appalling damage that a bunch of tax-avoiding shysters dragging along the useful-idiot racists for their votes have done to the country.

Supporters have mostly gone quiet on the economic arguments (unless they are the aforementioned offshore-hoarding, tax-avoiding millionaires) because the damage is huge and undeniable now. Instead, they changed tack to claim the sovereignty argument was the most important after all: "It was never about the economy, self determination / independence, control of our laws, I don't care what it costs, a few economic hits are worth it" etc. etc. That this is also completely false, and that sovereignty was never 'surrendered' will eventually dawn on the dwindling band of supporters, but how bad do things have to get before then?

MP's and Lords will be slow to do anything about it, because let's face it, most of them are immune from the effects. A majority in the polls seem to be acknowledging the mistake but it will take a long time for things to improve, and I am appalled at how many people and businesses will suffer and disappear because of it. Yet still the unthinking tory voting working class, many of my family and friends among them, will continue to argue until they're puce that it's the greatest act of strength. I give up, leave 'em to it.

Oh, and F the tories, obvs.
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To summarise:

Fantasy: Sovereignty
Reality: the road to the CHAOS
 
eternumviti said:
I just thought you might like a bit of light relief from the bash Britain thread. I do think 'folk' here sometimes need to be reminded that it isn't just the UK that is having problems, and that the issues that it has are far from all being entirely due to brexit. You know, even far away New Zealand is having similar issues - housing shortages, cost of living crisis, rising crime, widening gap between rich and poor, high child poverty etc. The beatific Cindy jumped before she was pushed. Nothing to do with brexit, amazingly.

Define for me 'having a pop at those Germans', and set out how I did so in such a way that you feel that you needed to highlight it as if I had committed a minor crime of some sort. Or is Germany still beyond reproach? Perhaps you'd still like Mutti the Great to come and be prime minister of Great Britain?
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Even by your standards that is a pile of lame projection and deflection that had nothing to do with my post. Brexit worsening the U.K. has nothing to do with the other issues here or abroad, but it has successfully damaged and continues to damage the U.K. specifically, making other issues even more challenging. Oh and it did make me smile to see you accusing people of having to ‘pore over’ newspapers in search of evidence when it’s all over front pages, even your beloved Torygraph.

One of these days you'll have the grace to admit that this shitshow was not our finest hour, or be able to present some positives that don't rely on pointing at problems for others who are otherwise in a better position than the UK, but I won't hold my breath.
 
SteveS1 said:
One of these days you'll have the grace to admit that this shitshow was not our finest hour, or be able to present some positives that don't rely on pointing at some problems of others who are otherwise in a better position than the UK, but I won't hold my breath.
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Don't be silly. Not this side of Westminster turning into a smouldering ruin. It was worth a bit of minor cost, it was never just about money.
 
SteveS1 said:
Even by your standards that is a pile of lame projection and deflection that had nothing to do with my post. Brexit worsening the U.K. has nothing to do with the other issues here or abroad, but it has successfully damaged and continues to damage the U.K. specifically, making other issues even more challenging. Oh and it did make me smile to see you accusing people of having to ‘pore over’ newspapers in search of evidence when it’s all over front pages, even your beloved Torygraph.

One of these days you'll have the grace to admit that this shitshow was not our finest hour, or be able to present some positives that don't rely on pointing at problems for others who are otherwise in a better position than the UK, but I won't hold my breath.
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Ah, the old accusations of 'projection' and 'deflection', predictably deployed if you've got nothing better to offer when faced with truths that don't quite comply with the narrative. The only projection that is going on is you and the gang projecting all of the problems that Britain faces uniquely onto Brexit, aka bollocks demonstrable by comparison with all of western Europe and indeed most of the rest of the globe.

Yes, Brexit is playing its part and irrefutably worsening the crisis, but the crisis isn't due to Brexit, it is the creation of a concatenation of external factors - covid, Russia-Ukraine, US protectionism, China, China-Taiwan, the retraction of the global supply-chain networks, the energy crisis, inflation, debt, the end of cheap money etc.. - colliding with poor, ill-considered, inept or non-existent policy from a government devoid of ideas and utterly isolated from reality.

I have acknowledged, indeed stated from the very beginning that Brexit is a failure. It is a failure of government, statesmanship and diplomacy, a failure of long-term policy, of strategy, and of ideology, and it is one premised upon the inescapable truths within that, for the 30 odd years leading up to 1993 we were sold a big, fat, steaming porky, and it is one that was disbursed progressively, surreptitiously and without any form of democratic consent.

The loss of our membership of the EU Single Market is, if not an outright disaster, a pretty bitter pill to have to swallow, and it is hurting. The issue, whether you like it or not, lies in the 'EU' bit of 'EU Single Market'. I am sure that, over time, it will not prove to be beyond the wit of ourselves and our political and civil servants to address the more serious issues and ameliorate some of the difficulties, but it won't be until after our current government has received its electorate-issued P45s, which it will. The electorate, you see, doesn't care for being lied to, and if brexit has brought one positive to date, it is to have exposed this and all of our future governments to a degree of scrutiny that has never before been experienced.

In the meantime, sit back and watch the show, continue to vent your furious spleen at me for the benefit of the pfm political thread echo-chamber, or get out there and get involved. I suspect I already know which one you're going to choose.
 
eternumviti said:
Ah, the old accusations of 'projection' and 'deflection', predictably deployed if you've got nothing better to offer when faced with truths that don't quite comply with the narrative. The only projection that is going on is you and the gang projecting all of the problems that Britain faces uniquely onto Brexit, aka bollocks demonstrable by comparison with all of western Europe and indeed most of the rest of the globe.

Yes, Brexit is playing its part and irrefutably worsening the crisis, but the crisis isn't due to Brexit, it is the creation of a concatenation of external factors - covid, Russia-Ukraine, US protectionism, China, China-Taiwan, the retraction of the global supply-chain networks, the energy crisis, inflation, debt, the end of cheap money etc.. - colliding with poor, ill-considered, inept or non-existent policy from a government devoid of ideas and utterly isolated from reality.

I have acknowledged, indeed stated from the very beginning that Brexit is a failure. It is a failure of government, statesmanship and diplomacy, a failure of long-term policy, of strategy, and of ideology, and it is one premised upon the inescapable truths within that, for the 30 odd years leading up to 1993 we were sold a big, fat, steaming porky, and it is one that was disbursed progressively, surreptitiously and without any form of democratic consent.

The loss of our membership of the EU Single Market is, if not an outright disaster, a pretty bitter pill to have to swallow, and it is hurting. The issue, whether you like it or not, lies in the 'EU' bit of 'EU Single Market'. I am sure that, over time, it will not prove to be beyond the wit of ourselves and our political and civil servants to address the more serious issues and ameliorate some of the difficulties, but it won't be until after our current government has received its electorate-issued P45s, which it will. The electorate, you see, doesn't care for being lied to, and if brexit has brought one positive to date, it is to have exposed this and all of our future governments to a degree of scrutiny that has never before been experienced.

In the meantime, sit back and watch the show, continue to vent your furious spleen at me for the benefit of the pfm political thread echo-chamber, or get out there and get involved. I suspect I already know which one you're going to choose.
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Re: the bit I highlighted - if that was true then I doubt Leave would have got a majority and Brexit wouldn't have happened.
 
eternumviti said:
Sure, but it is the original lie that was the problem, Nick.
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Not just Brexit, but lies have produced the erosion of our rights, austerity, the Gulf War, demonisation of refugees, racism (any hatred of an 'other', basically), misogyny, Boris Johnson getting elected, COVID/vaccine conspiracies, the rise of the far-right, climate-change denial, political instability, etc etc. It seems that the public do care for being lied to, and those responsible for the lies know it, as it helps them win elections.
 
Quite apart from those matters, most of which invite entire debates of their own, I thought this was the brexit thread?
 
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