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Brexit: give me a positive effect (2023 ‘Epic Fail’ box set edition)

I think the next election is next year.
Indeed, but we’re likely to have a choice between a bunch of liars, spivs, chancers and crooks, or a bunch of people who share many of the same ideological values as the liars, spivs, chancers and crooks, but who haven’t yet shown their true colours. The option to remove those we don’t like is largely illusory. Is that really so much better, and worth trashing the economy for?
 
Political union is simply not required for a Single Market.
Theoretically I'm sure you are right. However, for a practical single market to function as intended you'll need quite a lot of regulatory harmonisation etc. That in itself doesn't require a political element, but I would think it makes it a hell of a lot easier to implement and govern the regulatory side if there is some sort of political mandate behind it.

I am obviously not an expert on this so go ahead and disagree, but my impression is that quite a big proportion of the legislation enacted in the EU originated from that purpose. Of course that excludes the common military etc, but if you not only want to have a functioning market but also some degree of economic protection for your competitive position (especially with a single currency), the suddenly your need for political unity grows dramatically - leading to a need for a bigger political mandate.
 
Indeed, but we’re likely to have a choice between a bunch of liars, spivs, chancers and crooks, or a bunch of people who share many of the same ideological values as the liars, spivs, chancers and crooks, but who haven’t yet shown their true colours. The option to remove those we don’t like is largely illusory. Is that really so much better, and worth trashing the economy for?

I take it that the Labour party is considered to be only marginally less toxic than the tories on here. For the time being the choice is going to have to be between the lesser of (what you see as) two evils. Rome was not, after all, built in a day.

I've never been very clear what it is that the pfm political commentators actually do want, bar the fact that whatever it is it should be elected by one form or another of PR, and probably be soft and squidgy and everyone would love each other and agree, a bit like the Germans.

Oh, hang on...
 
Theoretically I'm sure you are right. However, for a practical single market to function as intended you'll need quite a lot of regulatory harmonisation etc. That in itself doesn't require a political element, but I would think it makes it a hell of a lot easier to implement and govern the regulatory side if there is some sort of political mandate behind it.

And all that regulatory harmonisation can be directed by global bigcorps, via the 30 odd thousand lobbyists who strut their stuff in windowless meeting rooms and all those swish restaurants in Brussels & Strasbourg, far, far away from any form of oversight by pesky voters. So much easier to govern and implement without them getting in the way.

I am obviously not an expert on this so go ahead and disagree, but my impression is that quite a big proportion of the legislation enacted in the EU originated from that purpose. Of course that excludes the common military etc, but if you not only want to have a functioning market but also some degree of economic protection for your competitive position (especially with a single currency), the suddenly your need for political unity grows dramatically - leading to a need for a bigger political mandate.

The need for political unity certainly grows sharply in the case of a single currency, which is of course exactly why the single currency was introduced. You know, softly, softly, catchee monkey.
 
And all that regulatory harmonisation can be directed by global bigcorps, via the 30 odd thousand lobbyists who strut their stuff in windowless meeting rooms and all those swish restaurants in Brussels & Strasbourg, far, far away from any form of oversight by pesky voters. So much easier to govern and implement without them getting in the way.

The need for political unity certainly grows sharply in the case of a single currency, which is of course exactly why the single currency was introduced. You know, softly, softly, catchee monkey.
I can assure you most global bigcorps do not see the EU as a friendly, cuddly regulator that can be swayed with a few dinners.
BTW, it's that time of the year: are you still predicting the euro will fail in 2023, a "victim of its own contradictions" to recycle an old Marxist favourite?
 
I can assure you most global bigcorps do not see the EU as a friendly, cuddly regulator that can be swayed with a few dinners.

I don't think I said that they did. But you got my gist.

BTW, it's that time of the year: are you still predicting the euro will fail in 2023, a "victim of its own contradictions" to recycle an old Marxist favourite?

I don't think I've ever been quite that specific, but who knows.
 
I can assure you most global bigcorps do not see the EU as a friendly, cuddly regulator that can be swayed with a few dinners.
BTW, it's that time of the year: are you still predicting the euro will fail in 2023, a "victim of its own contradictions" to recycle an old Marxist favourite?
Yet Brussels is the second biggest lobbying town in the world. They wouldn't be there if people could not be swayed. I'm sure it takes more than a few dinners, though. i.e a hundred grand in a suitcase for one of them. Or is that 5 of them now? I'm also seeing that the cash could be up to 1.5 million! Also Panzeri has cut a deal with the feds, promising to name a few more MEPs.

Meanwhile von der Leyen is being investigated for her role in a 35 billion euro sms 'deal' with Pfizer.

Popcorn time!
 
Yet Brussels is the second biggest lobbying town in the world. They wouldn't be there if people could not be swayed. I'm sure it takes more than a few dinners, though. i.e a hundred grand in a suitcase for one of them. Or is that 5 of them now? I'm also seeing that the cash could be up to 1.5 million! Also Panzeri has cut a deal with the feds, promising to name a few more MEPs.

There's lobbying wherever there are politicians, and the bigger the governed area the more lobbyists. I'm sure there's backhanders going on in Brussels, but compared to the UK (and Washington) the EU doesn't look too bad. Washington DC is in the pockets of the corporations, and the UK government is in the pockets of oligarchs.

I find it utterly laughable that anyone would still cling to the idea that Brexit was about taking back control from lobbyists when you look at the rampant corruption that has followed the 2016 vote.
 
Yet Brussels is the second biggest lobbying town in the world. They wouldn't be there if people could not be swayed. I'm sure it takes more than a few dinners, though. i.e a hundred grand in a suitcase for one of them. Or is that 5 of them now? I'm also seeing that the cash could be up to 750k! Also Panzeri has cut a deal with the feds, promising to name a few more MEPs.
Several people (including MEPs and former MEPs) are in jail as a result, so it seems that one went well beyond lobbying into corruption territory. The cash recovered so far is more like € 1.5 million. Panzeri's revelations could be juicy - it will be interesting to see if any MEPs from parties other than the Socialis & Democrats group are implicated, in particular EPP. Russia, Kazakhstan, Saudi Arabia and Mauritania were also allegedly at it.
 
There's lobbying wherever there are politicians, and the bigger the governed area the more lobbyists. I'm sure there's backhanders going on in Brussels, but compared to the UK (and Washington) the EU doesn't look too bad. Washington DC is in the pockets of the corporations, and the UK government is in the pockets of oligarchs.

I find it utterly laughable that anyone would still cling to the idea that Brexit was about taking back control from lobbyists when you look at the rampant corruption that has followed the 2016 vote.
The tory party needs to go. Obvs. They should have gone with Cameron. Is it Ok to mistrust the EU and the tory party? Becasue that is my positon.
 
Several people are in jail as a result, so it seems that one went well beyond lobbying into corruption territory. The cash recovered so far is more like € 1.5 million. Panzeri's revelations could be juicy - it will be interesting to see if any MEPs from parties other than the Socialis & Democrats group are implicated, in particular EPP. Russia, Kazakhstan, Saudi Arabia and Mauritania were also allegedly at it.
He is looking at serving one year instead of 5 for being a grass. I wonder why Qatari indivuduals are not being extradited?
 
Forgive me, but you seem to be swinging from posing as something of an ingénue in your recent posts, not really understanding what the EU fuss is all about, to expressing strong anti-brexit opinions, deploying the extremely tired 'only an advisory referendum'/'we should have stayed in to bring about reform' tropes. You also stated that you think borders are essentially rather silly and unneccessary things, which is fair enough if democracy - the ability to hire and sanction the people who raise and spend your taxes, and make your laws - isn't particularly your thing, but you have to accept that to many of us, it is.

You also display a fundamental misunderstanding, if you'll forgive me again, of what the EU is, for in stating that the 1975 referendum was decisive you entirely miss the point that the EU didn't exist in 1975, and wasn't to do so for another 18 years. Whilst the lie had been formulated my Macmillan and his advisers (who included Heath) as far back as the 1950s, prior to the UK's original bids for membership, it didn't properly coalesce until the Maastricht Treaty of 1992/3 created the European Union, subsuming the citizens of the member states into citizens of the EU, launching the EU Single Currency, and creating the framework for the successor EU constitution (the Lisbon Treaty) of 2007, within which the EU evolved into a legal international entity in its own right. This 2 part process involved a shift of constitutional power from the member states to the institutions of Brussels so fundamental and far-reaching that it cannot but be beyond dispute that the electorates - the reach of whose whose suffrage would be fundamentally diluted - should have been given the right to decide by plebiscite. You and I were not consulted over either Maastricht or Lisbon. Therein lay the foundations of Brexit.


No, I'm just tired of arguing about it. Democracy I understand, it's the pathetic misplaced hubris of nationalism I despise, and it's all-too common presence in many pro-brexit meanderings.
The UK joined the EC in 1973, not the EU, and had a ref to confirm continued participation. Our elected representatives knew exactly what they were doing with regard to the single market and the development of the EU via Maastricht and Lisbon.
Whining about not getting a say is a moot point - plenty of decisions have been taken by governments throughout history that were not popular with some of their electorate. In these cases, our representatives did what was best for the country. The benefits were many and undeniable, and the costs both economic and social from withdrawing are only just beginning to be realised. Ultimately, we made a choice to leave, but what are the benefits to the country from having done so?

If democracy is the ultimate arbiter, the champion that brexiters support, then surely you must all now be on board with the significant majority in every poll that realise brexit was a mistake, and wish to re-join?
 
I think it’s quite clear what Brexit was an expression of ( as well as being a bonanza for the ‘influencers’ running the scam). One of the obsessions was Turkey, though they seem to have succumbed to the relentless advance of Albania.
 
I don't think so. What we are seeing now is our governing elites utterly exposed. It might not be what we expected it to look like, but this is democracy in action.

Democracy? Bojo suspended Parliament/Democracy recently and we've had 3 unelected incompetent and dishonest bureaucrats in 4 years...
 
I suggest if such a Europe was put to the voters in all EU member states it would be rejected by a landslide, which is the reason why there is no chance to vote on the path being taken by the EU.

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No, I'm just tired of arguing about it. Democracy I understand, it's the pathetic misplaced hubris of nationalism I despise, and it's all-too common presence in many pro-brexit meanderings.
The UK joined the EC in 1973, not the EU, and had a ref to confirm continued participation. Our elected representatives knew exactly what they were doing with regard to the single market and the development of the EU via Maastricht and Lisbon.
Whining about not getting a say is a moot point - plenty of decisions have been taken by governments throughout history that were not popular with some of their electorate. In these cases, our representatives did what was best for the country. The benefits were many and undeniable, and the costs both economic and social from withdrawing are only just beginning to be realised. Ultimately, we made a choice to leave, but what are the benefits to the country from having done so?

If democracy is the ultimate arbiter, the champion that brexiters support, then surely you must all now be on board with the significant majority in every poll that realise brexit was a mistake, and wish to re-join?

Needless to say I could pick up on each of your points and waste lots more of our mutual time setting out how and why I disagree with them, but ultimately we'll have just to agree to differ.

I will, though, comment on the one point with which I agree with you; that our elected politicians 'knew exactly what they were doing' with regard to Maastricht and Lisbon, a notion that could be neatly encapsulated in the image of PM Gordon Brown being 'otherwise engaged' during the formal signing of the latter, and popping in later to add his signature hidden in a janitor's cupboard, safely away from any witnessing press cameras.
 


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