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Brexit: give me a positive effect (2023 ‘Epic Fail’ box set edition)

TheDecameron said:
I was rather obviously I thought, referring to your celebrity victimhood with that classic pearl clutch- “I did wonder who would be first…”. I mean it’s not like you didn’t have your fishing rod out. You see this delightful inversion all over the media, notably with Farage and his victim of “debanking” fiction, victim of racism, victim of discrimination ( because no one would vote him into Parliament 7 times).

Its getting that the well heeled white man can’t speak his mind in his own country any longer.
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Oh, God, as much as it might suit you to say so, I certainly don't see myself as a 'victim'! Most on this thread would contend that I'm more perpetrator than victim, but that's another thing.

The comment did amuse me though, coming from a man who was only a couple of weeks ago clutching his own voluminous first-world pearls over the fact (or fiction) that he might suffer some slight delays at airports and not have quite the same choice of foods that he was fortunate enough to enjoy when we were members of the EU, just before, as I recall, jetting off to (his pad in?) Paris for 'another' month, poor soul.
 
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eternumviti said:
This 'fellow travellers' trope is one of the most ugly and insidious employed by the EUphile far left, and you do it constantly. It isn't just that it wilfully ignores the anti-immigrant antics of the EU itself, it is worse still. It is a fallback position of those who cannot tolerate dissent from their own point of view, yet have no coherent argument of their own - you have no coherent response to my case against the EU institutions, so default to abuse, misrepresentation and namecalling. There's a word for it in the English language, and it isn't a pretty one. I don't think that easy resort to it does you any favours.
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I agree. It does annoy me that EV is the subject of so much vitriol, much of it personal and borderline ad-hom in contravention of the forum AUP, for his views. I don't think I can recall a single instance of EV expressing xenophobic views, his objections to the EU have consistently been ideological and around the perceived democratic shortcomings. Whether you agree with him or not, the 'fellow travellers' trope is cheap, and undeserved and if that's the only argument you have, better to keep it to yourself I think. We mostly criticise the government for bringing in the 'joint enterprise' laws, and in particular for the way they have been used, so let's not adopt similar positions on other things ourselves. There are plenty of ways to disagree with EV without painting him as a racist or xenophobe.
 
TheDecameron said:
I think PsB should be acknowledged as his course tutor though. You could watch EV learning quickly on the job in response to what were very detailed expositions of EU Law, treaty history and Britain’s role as a ‘senior partner’ within Europe . Prior to that it was as clear a case of ukipiosis regurgitans as you’re likely to see.
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It's always good to have someone who knows his or her stuff in a debate, you are right, it forces you to raise your own game. It's a shame that PsB is a pretty isolated example here. But that you could follow his example, instead of constantly deploying your hallmark pointed sarcasm, an effective weapon indeed, but not as an instrument of informed debate. I'm sure you'd go far.
 
PsB said:
While I have no idea what you meant with the second sentence, that first one is a work of art. Is that anti-EU but not pro-Brexit? Very anti-EU but only mildly pro-Brexit? Vaguely disappointed by Brexit? Very anti-EU, always, and Brexit-shy only when facing yet another example of HMG's incompetence at running an actual border? Please enlighten us.

If you're against the EU and weren't terribly keen on Brexit, what were you hoping for when you ticked the box in 2016? Surely not joining the USA or CIS, so what? Immediate collapse of the EU, to be replaced by a sensible Common Market à la EFTA? I would've thought anybody voting to leave the EU would have a pretty definite idea of what Brexit he/she was looking for, but maybe that's too pragmatic.
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I've consistently stated that I see the fact that brexit happened at all as an abject failure, one not only of generations of UK politicians, but of the EU itself, and massively so, largely due to its blinkered determination to progress towards its own ends without consent. I haven't changed that point of view.

I don't know is, I think, my answer to your second question. I guess that sometimes we just have to do what we think is the right thing, even if it doesn't seem at the time to be the easiest option.
 
“Britain a contentedly unracist country top to bottom”- were you also ghost writing The Plot for Nadine by any chance?. Britain has become misshapen with anti-immigrant sentiment, ethnic supremacist fantasies and contempt for anything ‘not of us’ and it runs from the top down. Johnson took office on the back of it, his party’s closest ideological rival, Reform, breaths it. Loathing of foreigners is the currency of the UKs govt- it derives its perceived legitimacy from it and the most conspicuous inversion of the lot- is that criticism of Rwanda, the Tory detention camps and deportations, is of itself racist. You should be ashamed but I get it that that’s not possible for you.
 
Colin L said:
No, just typical public schoolboy arrogance and obstinate overconfidence in the face of contradictory facts. Say it loud and confidently and the plebs will fall into line and tug their forelock. The bane of UK is our shit privately educated politicians with Cameron, Spaffer and Rishi as exemplars. I’ve said often that EV is a natural Tory politician.. Sophistry turned up to the max and damn the consequences and facts.
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When you make comments like that, Colin, you don't come across to me as necessarily being the sharpest knife in the drawer. I'm neither arrogant nor particularly confident, let alone overly so, and I'm not entirely sure what your apparent 'facts' actually are. Cameron, Spaffer and Rishi all went to far smarter public schools than I did, for what its worth. I'm very far from a natural Tory, let alone politician, I'd love to know (though I hold out no great hopes) what you consider it is that I've written here that constitutes 'sophistry', I'm acutely sensitive to the consequences, and again, those 'facts' of yours?
 
eternumviti said:
. I'm neither arrogant nor particularly confident, let alone overly so,
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Oh do come off it.
eternumviti said:
, I'd love to know (though I hold out no great hopes) what you consider it is that I've written here that constitutes 'sophistry',
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Another come off it moment. You are very fond of the very-carefully-defined use of a word defining an argument, to the point of hair splitting, to make your points. That's sophistry.
 
stevec67 said:
No, I know your behaviour. Your behaviour is consistent on here, this very post displays it.
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I would say that your behaviour on here is both arrogant and consistently and often extremely aggressive. You ain't in the best position to lecture.

stevec67 said:
No, it's sophistry if the argument hinges on a particular use of language, and yours frequently does.
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You'd best look up the meaning of sophistry.
 
eternumviti said:
I would say that your behaviour on here is both arrogant and often extremely aggressive. You ain't in the best position to lecture.
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Be my guest with your opinion. It's as important to me as mine clearly is to you. I'm not lecturing, I'm pointing out the way that you behave, in contrast with what you say you are. Arrogant and confident in spades.
eternumviti said:
You'd best look up the meaning of sophistry.
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You'd best give over pretending.
 
wacko said:
You know a great deal more about the EU than most people here, myself included.
You focus on the democratic (or lack of) process within the EU; and that has outweighed all the benefits of membership, and the obvious damage Brexit has caused.
I disagree with you on Brexit. But you are the only person, on PFM at least, that has made a learned case for it.
And the perseverance to keep making it. Chapeau.
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Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I agree. It does annoy me that EV is the subject of so much vitriol, much of it personal and borderline ad-hom in contravention of the forum AUP, for his views. I don't think I can recall a single instance of EV expressing xenophobic views, his objections to the EU have consistently been ideological and around the perceived democratic shortcomings. Whether you agree with him or not, the 'fellow travellers' trope is cheap, and undeserved and if that's the only argument you have, better to keep it to yourself I think. We mostly criticise the government for bringing in the 'joint enterprise' laws, and in particular for the way they have been used, so let's not adopt similar positions on other things ourselves. There are plenty of ways to disagree with EV without painting him as a racist or xenophobe.
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Thank you both, appreciated.
 
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