Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition)

[tones]

An article in Today's Irish Times reminds me that the Irish Free State/Irish Republic is 100 years old this year:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...inable-success-in-its-first-century-1.4767461

As the article says, it has come a long way. So, since this was achieved after splitting off from a larger union (and included a bitter civil war that killed more Irishmen than the British did during the original Troubles), does this spell ultimate success for post-Brexit UK? I personally would have voted Remain and still regard Brexit as a big mistake, but for the sake of its inhabitants, I hope it works out for the UK.

Of course, it has to be said that a major factor in Ireland's success has been EU membership - it has played a major part in the transformation of the country from De Valera's merrie Ireland agrarian vision to the modern, forward-thinking nation it is today. The Irish have always been enthusiastic Europeans, the British not so - I guess it's too much of a comedown from ruling the world's greatest empire to a major, but not the major, player in a multinational conglomerate, and this within living memory. So, it's a bit like Zhou Enlai's famous comment on the results of the French Revolution - it's too early to tell.

 

[SteveS1]

I guess it's too much of a comedown from ruling the world's greatest empire to a major, but not the major, player in a multinational conglomerate, a

In a nutshell.

It's not enough to have "a" say - the UK wants 'the' say, or ability to opt out. To be fair, the EU tolerated a significant amount of UK exceptionalism as members, pragmatically having an eye on the bigger picture. But the lesson is a clear one, the more exceptions and opt-outs, the more the UK wanted.

I think Johnson himself is a pretty good example of the mindset. You will remember in the letter to his father from his school....

"Boris sometimes seems affronted when criticised for what amounts to a gross failure of responsibility (and surprised at the same time that he was not appointed Captain of the School for next half): I think he honestly believes that it is churlish of us not to regard him as an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation which binds everyone else.”

 

[TheDecameron]

In a nutshell.

It's not enough to have "a" say - the UK wants 'the' say, or ability to opt out. To be fair, the EU tolerated a significant amount of UK exceptionalism as members, pragmatically having an eye on the bigger picture. But the lesson is a clear one, the more exceptions and opt-outs, the more the UK wanted.

I think Johnson himself is a pretty good example of the mindset. You will remember in the letter to his father from his school....

"Boris sometimes seems affronted when criticised for what amounts to a gross failure of responsibility (and surprised at the same time that he was not appointed Captain of the School for next half): I think he honestly believes that it is churlish of us not to regard him as an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation which binds everyone else.”

Currently the fascists in Poland and Hungary are trying the same crap as Johnson. Never forget a large number of Tory MPs were not only calling for Brexit but the destruction of the EU.

 

[mansr]

Never mind imperial weights and measures, it's temperatures in Fahrenheit that fox me, and I'm 70( ish) so must have grown up with it, but now have no conception of whether, say, 50 degs Fahrenheit is hot/cold or what it feels like. I have to do a quick mental conversion to Kelvin.

Fahrenheit was the scientist. The temperature scale is Fahrenheit's monster.

 

[eternumviti]

Currently the fascists in Poland and Hungary are trying the same crap as Johnson. Never forget a large number of Tory MPs were not only calling for Brexit but the destruction of the EU.

'Destruction' is a bit strong, surely. I though the catchphrase was 'fundamental reform'.

How many constitutes 'a large number'?

 

[NeilR]

The question is, would the EU want us back in after the behaviour of the Tories?

not for a generation, unfortunately.

I hold out more hope for joining the EEA/EFTA in a decade or so though which will alleviate much of the damage.

 

[-alan-]

Genuinely interested to understand this assertion. Can you say what those advantages are as I can't think of any.

I'm largely a child of the later decimal area, and as an engineer much more appreciative of the simplicity of it (albeit having worked in the aerospace industry for many years) where aircraft were designed and built using metric units - and then flown in operated by pilots still dealing with nautical miles and maximum take off and landing weights in lbs

As I understand it, the older duodecimal solution was widely preferred because of the ease with which larger units could be shared out or subdivided accurately into smaller parts - half, 1/3, 1/4, 1/4, 1/12,1/24,1/36/1/48,1/64 etc - without any rounding losses (and without reference to a calculator ). This would have presumably have made for easier trading and exchange of smaller quantities of goods than would be the case in the equivalent base 10 / metric system.

 

[TheDecameron]

I’m not convinced Brexit is at the end of its decay cycle. The nutters in the Tory Party along with a few Ulster Unionists are determined to hold the people of Ireland hostage by tearing up the Brexit agreement. Trade with Europe is already badly damaged, tariffs would finish off a lot of our exporters and that’s before Washington decides to weigh in.

 

[stevec67]

I’m not convinced Brexit is at the end of its decay cycle. The nutters in the Tory Party along with a few Ulster Unionists are determined to hold the people of Ireland hostage by tearing up the Brexit agreement. Trade with Europe is already badly damaged, tariffs would finish off a lot of our exporters and that’s before Washington decides to weigh in.

It's not over yet. It's going to have to get really, really bad before there is a winning consensus that we have been sold a pup and it's time to go back in.

 

[MikeMA]

not for a generation, unfortunately.

I hold out more hope for joining the EEA/EFTA in a decade or so though which will alleviate much of the damage.

I think this is the more realistic option, at least in the short to medium term, and in less than a decade I'd hope, given the political will.

 

[Nero]

I'm a absolutist, I like Kelvin.

Good luck with that. Everything is relative to, er, zero. Just choose which.

 

[TheDecameron]

A trotter stamps and other noises of a self-contradictory nature:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...otocol-if-talks-falter?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


“I am prepared to work night and day to negotiate a solution,” Truss continued.

“But let me be clear, I will not sign up to anything which sees the people of Northern Ireland unable to benefit from the same decisions on taxation and spending as the rest of the UK, or which still sees goods moving within our own country being subject to checks.

“My priority is to protect peace and stability in Northern Ireland. I want a negotiated solution but if we have to use legitimate provisions including article 16, I am willing to do that.”


The majority in Northern Ireland believe the existing Protocol is working fine, they also voted to remain in the EU.
Their economy is doing better than the U.K. as a direct result of being in the CU with rising exports to the EU.
Exchanging the sea customs border for a hard land border with the rest of Ireland flouts the GFA and is a threat to peace. The island of Ireland does not want that, the US doesn’t want it and the EU doesn’t want it.

 

[snowflake]

Hi folks,

Just dropping in on (at pg5) on the remastered 2022 thread, any positives yet? Apologies for not starting at pg1.

Ta

S

 

[stevec67]

Hi folks,

Just dropping in on (at pg5) on the remastered 2022 thread, any positives yet? Apologies for not starting at pg1.

Ta

S

I wouldn't wait up if I were you. Work in the morning and all that.

 

[SteveS1]

Here are some.....oops false alarm. Never mind, think of it as a freedom levy.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...o-soaring-costs-in-2022-warn-uk-manufacturers

 

[PsB]

Here are some.....oops false alarm. Never mind, think of it as a freedom levy.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...o-soaring-costs-in-2022-warn-uk-manufacturers

Just remoaners talking down their country, etc.

 

[SteveS1]

Just remoaners talking down their country, etc.

Yes. People who have to deal with it, rather than those who have no clue and even less interest in what's involved. What do they know eh?

 

[ff1d1l]

Yes. People who have to deal with it, rather than those who have no clue and even less interest in what's involved. What do they know eh?

A shitshow when they see it?

 

[TheDecameron]

Here are some.....oops false alarm. Never mind, think of it as a freedom levy.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...o-soaring-costs-in-2022-warn-uk-manufacturers

Add that to road fuel, gas and electricity prices and the flash point being reached in N.Ireland and it’s a perfect storm for the Tories. They’ll dump Johnson sooner to carry the blame. The great Brexit lie becomes fully unmasked.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Add that to road fuel, gas and electricity prices and the flash point being reached in N.Ireland and it’s a perfect storm for the Tories. They’ll dump Johnson sooner to carry the blame. The great Brexit lie becomes fully unmasked.

I suspect Liz Truss is being lined up as his successor mainly because she's too dumb to notice that it's an utterly poisoned chalice at this stage in the game, and nobody else will take the job. Johnson needs to go down by himself rather than with his ship, and if his successor gets taken down in the undertow, at least that'll clear the waters for somebody else before the next election.