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Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition) II

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Zaiden said:
Biggest positive effect I can think of is that the EU can no longer be used as a scapegoat for things successive governments have actively ignored, that we can now focus on fixing with accountability, rather than using the EU as an excuse for why investments into society/regenerating non-London parts of the UK cannot be done.
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This sounds somewhat like the wishful thinking espoused by Lexiters.
So how's it working out ? From outside the UK it appears that UK government mismanagement of the UK has reached new highs (or lows) since Brexit and the UK population is just as powerless as ever when it comes to holding politicians to account. And on top of this inward investment has plummeted and the economy is stagnating.
 
eternumviti said:
A point that I've made repeatedly, and is either enthusiastically mocked, or just ignored.
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Yes, because it's all going swimmingly well. Seriously, accountability hasn't been getting any better in Whitehall since Brexit, has it? On the contrary, escaping the EU straitjacket seems to have exacerbated some of the country's worst tendencies.
Also, I always get the impression you see the EU as a root cause of evil (hiding other, more domestic ills no doubt, but still toxic per se) rather than a scapegoat.
 
PsB said:
Yes, because it's all going swimmingly well. Seriously, accountability hasn't been getting any better in Whitehall since Brexit, has it? On the contrary, escaping the EU straitjacket seems to have exacerbated some of the country's worst tendencies.
Also, I always get the impression you see the EU as a root cause of evil (hiding other, more domestic ills no doubt, but still toxic per se) rather than a scapegoat.
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And also reluctant or unwilling to place any blame on the UK government, even six years after we left the EU to ‘take control’.
 
PsB said:
Yes, because it's all going swimmingly well. Seriously, accountability hasn't been getting any better in Whitehall since Brexit, has it? On the contrary, escaping the EU straitjacket seems to have exacerbated some of the country's worst tendencies.
Also, I always get the impression you see the EU as a root cause of evil (hiding other, more domestic ills no doubt, but still toxic per se) rather than a scapegoat.
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I'm not sure whether 'evil' is necessarily the adjective I'd use, but then I've not personally been a victim of some of its shoddier behaviour, and there have been plenty who have. I certainly don't see the EU as the benign and benevolent entity that it likes to paint itself.

As to accountability in Westminster, we are not only in very early days, but it looks to me as if lack of accountability is being sharply addressed even as we sit here pontificating about it.

Joe Hutch said:
And also reluctant or unwilling to place any blame on the UK government, even six years after we left the EU to ‘take control’.
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If that's referring to me, you're wildly off the mark.
 
eternumviti said:
As to accountability in Westminster, we are not only in very early days, but it looks to me as if lack of accountability is being sharply addressed even as we sit here pontificating about it.
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Very early days: it's been 6 years and a few prime ministers. Do you view life in Moggian time scales? I would classify this pace of improvement as glacial, if not tectonic.
 
eternumviti said:
Sometimes the choice of words, even meant in humour, is revealing.

Some are saying that Germany is the new Italy. And I don't think that anyone in Brussels is laughing at the moment.

You were sayingthat the EU is prospering. I'm aching for you to back that up with some numbers.
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The desperation to see smoke rising across the channel. It’s been an obsession not only of yours but of parts of the odious British press, matched only by the desperation to see something, anything stick to Keir Starmer and Nicola Sturgeon. No joy alas- instead we watched Brexit’s chief conman head for the bottom of the English Channel with all hands on board Boaty McBrexitface.

The next rotten, incompetent iteration will be along shortly to finish off what’s left of the U.K. still heading inexorably toward the iceberg.
 
PsB said:
Very early days: it's been 6 years and a few prime ministers. Do you view life in Moggian time scales? I would classify this pace of improvement as glacial, if not tectonic.
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As an EUphile, you should be used to glacial.
 
TheDecameron said:
The desperation to see smoke rising across the channel. It’s been an obsession not only of yours but of parts of the odious British press, matched only by the desperation to see something, anything stick to Keir Starmer and Nicola Sturgeon. No joy alas- instead we watched Brexit’s chief conman head for the bottom of the English Channel with all hands on board Boaty McBrexitface.

The next rotten, incompetent iteration will be along shortly to finish off what’s left of the U.K. still heading inexorably toward the iceberg.
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Smoke rising from across the channel. Now that would be a bit of a novelty, wouldn't it!

As experience relentlessly teaches us, we should be very careful of what we would wish for, but I admit that I wouldn't shed too many tears over the demise of the EU, provided there were something positive to replace it with. Thrashing around for a name for this imaginary entity, I came up with a blinder; The European Economic Community.

Do you think it might catch on?
 
eternumviti said:
I'm not sure whether 'evil' is necessarily the adjective I'd use, but then I've not personally been a victim of some of its shoddier behaviour, and there have been plenty who have. I certainly don't see the EU as the benign and benevolent entity that it likes to paint itself.
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I agree with this. The only problem for Brexiteers though is that the EU wasn't behind any problems in the UK; the UK benefited greatly from all the nefarious things the EU does (e.g. bullying African farmers so they can sell agriculture to Africa in exchange for things like minerals).

The argument that Brexit was to get the EU off the UK's back is imaginary. The UK was in the top 5 members on everyone else's back. All the UK did was cash in its chips in a corrupt casino. The mistake the Brexiters made was to think they either ran the casino or had the power to open a competing one.
 
Le Baron said:
I agree with this. The only problem for Brexiteers though is that the EU wasn't behind any problems in the UK; the UK benefited greatly from all the nefarious things the EU does (e.g. bullying African farmers so they can sell agriculture to Africa in exchange for things like minerals).

The argument that Brexit was to get the EU off the UK's back is imaginary. The UK was in the top 5 members on everyone else's back. All the UK did was cash in it's chips in a corrupt casino. The mistake the Brexiters made was to think they either ran the casino or had the power to open a competing one.
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The UK didn't merely benefit from the EU's nefarious behaviours, it frequently actively agitated for them within the EU. The EU is undoubtedly a cleaner entity without the UK's influence, albeit not by enough. Hopefully the UK will become a cleaner entity without the EU being used as cover for the excesses of its own politicians.
 
eternumviti said:
The UK didn't merely benefit from the EU's nefarious behaviours, it frequently actively agitated for them within the EU. The EU is undoubtedly a cleaner entity without the UK's influence, albeit not by enough. Hopefully the UK will become a cleaner entity without the EU being used as cover for the excesses of its own politicians.
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It's not cleaner. Neither of them are. That's the thing. It's just like one crook meeting another crook, doing crooked things together and then having a disagreement and parting. You're left with two crooks again.

All that's playing about with words though. The UK is now a great study in global economics, because we can see how such an entity will be over time when not part of some bloc. I'm reserving judgement, though currently it doesn't look great. Then again they are still drunk on the same economic drivel they originally sold to the EU in the first place all those years ago when Thatcher was flirting with Jacques Delors and Mitterrand went publicly insane.
 
Ah c'mon EV.. that is a bit of a stretch, blaming the EU for the abysmal behaviour of some/many of the current UK governing classes ? :)
 
eternumviti said:
As an EUphile, you should be used to glacial.
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Haha, yes: let's see who gets to the sunny uplands first, eh?
With your unerring eye for the negatives about the EU, you're in a win/win situation. When the EU is slow/deliberate, this is clear proof that it is a lumbering bureaucratic monster, not fit for the modern world. When it acts quickly and decisively, this is clear proof that the EU is an overbearing monster, one that "never lets a crisis go wasted", all to ensure the ultimate fulfillment of "The Project".
eternumviti said:
The UK didn't merely benefit from the EU's nefarious behaviours, it frequently actively agitated for them within the EU. The EU is undoubtedly a cleaner entity without the UK's influence, albeit not by enough. Hopefully the UK will become a cleaner entity without the EU being used as cover for the excesses of its own politicians.
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Key word here is "hopefully" - rarely a sufficient strategy in politics. The first few years of "Freedom" are not exactly encouraging.
 
PsB said:
Haha, yes: let's see who gets to the sunny uplands first, eh?
With your unerring eye for the negatives about the EU, you're in a win/win situation. When the EU is slow/deliberate, this is clear proof that it is a lumbering bureaucratic monster, not fit for the modern world. When it acts quickly and decisively, this is clear proof that the EU is an overbearing monster, one that "never lets a crisis go wasted", all to ensure the ultimate fulfillment of "The Project".

Key word here is "hopefully" - rarely a sufficient strategy in politics. The first few years of "Freedom" are not exactly encouraging.
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On your first bit, I guess that about sizes it up. On your second, whilst 'hopefully' mightn't be good strategy in politics, it undoubtedly reflects reality.

And no, the first few years of freedom (actually, one and a half), are not that encouraging, but really, 18 months? You must be a great optimist.
 
eternumviti said:
On your first bit, I guess that about sizes it up. On your second, whilst 'hopefully' mightn't be good strategy in politics, it undoubtedly reflects reality.

And no, the first few years of freedom (actually, one and a half), are not that encouraging, but really, 18 months? You must be a great optimist.
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More of a positive sort of pessimist.

Assuming 18 months is unreasonably short, how long do you want to give Team UK to get things sorted out? I'd hate to have to wait until my dotage.
 
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