Cereal Killer
432
So whats the rest of the cabinet doing then? Why not just make an 18L design and have this sitting on top of the sub - simples.
AVI's new floorstanders and subs or three way in two boxes as it may be.
- Thread starter arthur
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So whats the rest of the cabinet doing then? Why not just make an 18L design and have this sitting on top of the sub - simples.
Tony L
Administrator
I agree with much of what you say, and likewise I feel AVI products get far more of a beating here than they deserve, but I've seen this cycle sufficient times now to have recognised the pattern. The noise is IME entirely self-created: AVI go far out of their way to wind people up, e.g. they make some ridiculously outlandish claims, provide zero measurements or other concrete evidence to back them up, and then use it to slate competitors' product, likely that owned by many users here (e.g. ATC, Harbeth, Naim etc). This clearly annoys people, so any reaction is entirely predictable and largely justified. To be honest I find it all rather amusing, it's kind of a 'How deep a hole can Ashley dig this week?' type of thing, though it's a shame the products get caught in the crossfire.
Ashley James
Banned: bad debt
I've been busy and missed all this stuff and I don't agree Tony. I think PFs are wind up merchants and that they want to find fault in everything they don't own, most of which was made before 1985. They hope that by continuously taunting me I'll come back and give them some more ammunition to attack me with.
I can't keep repeating myself, but if you read back you'll see that I don't want you as customers because I wouldn't be able to deal with most of you. I've got lots of really nice ones without the stress you lot bring. The last ghastly Bristol Show was enough FFS!
I joked about Spacey and Steve Toy, but there are others as bad like this chap Marc who has made this defamatory post.
It's completely untrue and I guess most know that, but wouldn't admit it because they want to wind me up.
If you go on a forum of largely enthusiastic ADM9 owners and everyone tells you to buy them, you shouldn't be surprised. Only a smartarse who'd already decided on something else would even mention the experience.
I tend to stick to basic facts and use them to explain why we believe ADMs are better, particularly than old fashioned three ways that have their origins in the seventies. As they say you can lead a horse to water...
Ash
PS. I exclude you from all this Tone, I can see you're a nice bloke and I'd be delighted to see you at the factory, but not Spacey Steve Toy or Marc because they've been nasty to me.
Cereal Killer
432
Or there's no point in flogging an old horse, Ash. You'll never listen or try to understand another/s viewpoint, you seem to know best..... all the time. Life is for leaning, get of your soap box! See what goes on. You/AVi are not the be all and end all of active designs; many manufacturers do a better job. They'll backup their philosophies up with real data. You never produce any measurements or spec for anything, you just say yours are the best... now subjectively that is just your opinion and nothing more.
Ashley James
Banned: bad debt
Spacey
We're successful because we do/did listen to what people want and make it, we just didn't listen to PFs and try and make what they want, or not the loudest members anyway.
I'd imagine your post count is in the millions, you're all over this forum like a rash!
Ash
Cereal Killer
432
See my post above. You'll never learn....
Guys, much like it may astonish you, this forum is actually moderated and expects you to keep reasonably civil. We have quite an array of powerful weapons to deploy, and one of us has very good connections to the MoD and could probably wipe out major parts of Europe.
Markus - internet forum moderator
Markus - internet forum moderator
DSJR
Between us and them
There was a very long thread on zero gain once analysing the ATC mid dome and why it's performance wasn't quite as good as it was regarded, mainly because it's such a narrow bandwidth device. Ash was saying for years about the compromises in their then designs and, in fairness, your current experience with the 25ASL, which you indicate are better in many ways than the now old 50ASL's, may just show some truth in the alegations.
Oh and Tony L, i hear you on your followup post, but in this thread, it's been JC who's perhaps done more of the winding up - and I'm NOT trying to get back into Ash's good books either
just trying to see some fair justice done to the products, which will sell to "non we" types anyway
Cereal Killer
432
Thats very debatable, in what market exactly?
Cereal Killer
432
I also think bench tested results need to show how the data was collected, on what equipment and how it’s been prepared. Without such evidence its quite arbitrary at best.
Ashley James
Banned: bad debt
There was a very long thread on zero gain once analysing the ATC mid dome and why it's performance wasn't quite as good as it was regarded, mainly because it's such a narrow bandwidth device. Ash was saying for years about the compromises in their then designs and, in fairness, your current experience with the 25ASL, which you indicate are better in many ways than the now old 50ASL's, may just show some truth in the alegations.
Oh and Tony L, i hear you on your followup post, but in this thread, it's been JC who's perhaps done more of the winding up - and I'm NOT trying to get back into Ash's good books either
It's not just ATC, which was revolutionary in its day, both for Tim Isaac's groundbreaking electronic crossover design and because the dome was loud enough to enable studios to get rid of ghastly old horns! The dome had much more dynamic range than the little 4" device in the 801 and the B110 in the Kefs, which were World leaders at the time. Britain led the world in speaker design at that time and we ought to accept that.
The problem that these small mid range devices have is that they are rolling off steeply where the bottom crossover needs to go.
Therefore before you apply a crossover to it, it looks as though it has one so it is impossible to design an amplitude and phase correct crossover because it will be corrupted by the amplitude and phase of the driver. The two add together.
For a crossover to work, the speaker's amplitude response needs to extends for at least an octave below the it.
I've seen the ATC sound discussed on here several times, so people are hearing what I'm describing. In my opinion there are several good 5" two way speakers with a better mid range, though obviously not the dynamic range.
This is why B & W and others now use a 6" in the mid. A much better crossover can be designed, one that is less intrusive, but still audible.
Ash
Ashley James
Banned: bad debt
Harmonic distortions are the least of a drive units problems, although Hysteresis distortion and eddy currents in metal work are the bane of underhung VC designs.
Tony L
Administrator
Ash's good books either
More than somewhat ironically these AVI products would have sold multiple times on this thread alone had Ash been willing to consider a pro/minimalist audiophile version without the 'lifestyle system' integration DAC / pre frippery. There is unquestionably a market here for such a speaker. What I'd really love to see would be something like the high-end Scanspeak drivers in a beautifully finished ADM9 sized box with a high-end minimalist active amp pack and no gimmicks. I'd happily pay circa £2k-2.5k for that.
Cereal Killer
432
Ash, things move on, maybe your should re-address your ideas with the new data.
Cereal Killer
432
If the new ADM40's only use 18L internally, then this would be very possible.
Mescalito
pfm Member
Does it matter?
The fact remains that AVI make good sounding kit. The ADM 9s I heard in my own lounge (a mate brought them up when he visit. I ended up buying them off him for my Aberdeen flat) are some of the best small speakers I have ever heard.
Ashley has every right to be proud of them.
OK, he can get a little (a lot!) messiainic on the subject, but hey, that's his job FFS!
I think that the problem is not in how these little speakers sound but in the threat to the "steam preservation society" mindset they pose. In one fell swoop they eliminate amps, cables, preamps from the equation. There is F all left to tweak & sprinkle foo-fairy dust over!
OK, so they are not the ultimate hi-fi experience. But they beat the hell out of any system (not necessarily secomd hand) I can think of at the same price point.
Chris
Ashley James
Banned: bad debt
Thanks for that Mescalito!
You are exactly right except that there are hundreds of posts (many removed by mods) that state quite clearly that they better much much more expensive gear.
The record is £30,000, but it was Naim!
You are exactly right except that there are hundreds of posts (many removed by mods) that state quite clearly that they better much much more expensive gear.
The record is £30,000, but it was Naim!
Cereal Killer
432
I agree they're good value and always said that! but they do not appeal to people who want more than the next step up from a Richer Sounds or Bose Lifestyle system.
Cereal Killer
432
Thanks for that Mescalito!
You are exactly right except that there are hundreds of posts (many removed by mods) that state quite clearly that they better much much more expensive gear.
The record is £30,000, but it was Naim!
Absolute crock! Show me proof?
That would be a 252/300&PSU/CDS3-XPS2/Ovator 600's kind of ball park, and still have change.
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