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AVI DM10 - Active System

I would wager that "the closest approach to the original sound" was thought up by Quads marketing dept. with a clear imperative to sell more of their hifi.

I'm not so sure that I agree on that one.

Peter Walker and Quad were 'old school' in that objective assessment and measurement, and carefully controlled listening tests REALLY mattered, and in a time when to get as close as one could to reproduction of a concert hall experience was generally the consensual aim of manufacturers of the day. Measurements really mattered in reviews, and such measurements and tests were followed by a short summary as to the 'sound' of the kit, almost as an afterthought.

Linn and Naim arguably turned all that upside down in the 70's with a wholly subjective approach to assessing sound, with their Pace Rhythm and Timing, and Tune Dem mantras, and the search for HiFidelity sound in terms of science, closely controlled listening tests, and objective measurement gave way to almost completely subjective assessment of kit - at least in the so called Flat Earth world.

I'd argue that the wheel has swung the other way back towards objective measurement, and much more tightly controlled listening tests these days, especially with tech savvy 30 something buyers not easily taken in by the subjective mantras and methodology of assessing the merits or otherwise of HiFi equipment.

As such though, the arguments on forums twixt the objectivists and the subjectivists still rages...

Cheers

John..
 
John,

Peter Walker and Quad were 'old school'
I'd go a step further. People like Peter Walker were among those who invented school.

Joe
 
The point I was making is that whatever Peter Walker's motivations (and I agree he is a genuine audio innovator) the phrase may well have been invented by a marketing person.
 
I see Linn still market their audio 'sound' in demos via the tune dem mantra. And apparently, according to Linn, if it sounds better, it is better, - unless of course you you listen and claim that Bose sounds better than Linn, in which case I would presume one would be persona non gratis in Linns eyes.

Or the "pace rhythm and timing" alleged superiority of the Naim 'sound'.

Bo$e are obviously rubbish. Avi are the subject of a little mistrust here.

Naim have never marketed themselves as PRaT, this is what the media and forums like to chat about. Linn don't really say that:

https://www.linn.co.uk/tunedem

You can prefer Bo$e to Linn. I doubt if you could buy both in the same shop. You would also be wrong.

Linn and Naim arguably turned all that upside down in the 70's with a wholly subjective approach to assessing sound, with their Pace Rhythm and Timing, and Tune Dem mantras, and the search for HiFidelity sound in terms of science, closely controlled listening tests, and objective measurement gave way to almost completely subjective assessment of kit - at least in the so called Flat Earth world.

I'd argue that the wheel has swung the other way back towards objective measurement, and much more tightly controlled listening tests these days, especially with tech savvy 30 something buyers not easily taken in by the subjective mantras and methodology of assessing the merits or otherwise of HiFi equipment.

I won't restart the debate on what a properly controlled audio demo it. The Flat Earth thing also got people listening. With similar measuring products isn't that one way of deciding? Obviously they will be some influence to prefer the "better" product but that is another discussion.

Tech savvy? As many as there always were. You really must highlight where the measurements are in a modern digital system and amplifiers where you can reliably tell which system sounds best. We are way beyond most thresholds. We also get a great sound out of equipment that doesn't hit every threshold such as some valve amplifiers.

Dont forget we are arguing about apodising filters first brought to my attention by Meridian and onto their MQA- does that do everything they claim? Remember the debate over how much jitter can you have before you hear it. Jitter is a known engineering problem but it didn't surface on the magazines for a while but that doesn't mean it wasn't there!!

DAC makers are giving us a selection of filter types, why? Because there is no right answer? Marketing for them? The chipset allows them so they do? What measurements do we believe? Do we get switchable dither types? Is this still relevant with 24 bit (ha, good luck being accurate to 24 bits- I know as I have tested them and breathed on the chip and watched the errors) recordings?

I work with tech savvy people but they aren't audio engineers so they are seduced by some spec. Others will study everything and not just get on and listen. Casual listening in a relaxed environment can often give very effective results. Also what are we listening for? Dont forget the tech savvy yoof of today sometime prefer squished MP3 sound to that of full Red Book.

Magazines have moved away from filling the reviews with test as it doesn't sell the magazine. I know the likes of Paul Miller and Martin Colloms have got good test rigs but for a modern DAC how deep do you need to go to find out the measurement that quantifies the difference. Specifically the difference between filter types when we can't agree on what sounds best. (have a look at the thread on what measures "good sound"). I know John Atkinson and MC try to relate measurement and sound quality. This is probably easiest for speakers as they are the part of the chain that is most imperfect.
 
I often read that hifi is supposed to high fidelity (close to the original performance or recording). I'm not sure when the term was coined, maybe in the 50s? I suspect when it was coined the cliche of pipe and slippers valve sound was no doubt commonplace. Since then technical performance has considerably improved across the board, even with valves. Worrying about fidelity to original sound is now not important as almost all kit gets close enough to the original sound....to my mind absolute technical accuracy takes a distant 2nd place to finding a sound that suits the listener. A little bit of character is good for the soul.
 
I often read that hifi is supposed to high fidelity (close to the original performance or recording). I'm not sure when the term was coined, maybe in the 50s? I suspect when it was coined the cliche of pipe and slippers valve sound was no doubt commonplace. Since then technical performance has considerably improved across the board, even with valves. Worrying about fidelity to original sound is now not important as almost all kit gets close enough to the original sound....to my mind absolute technical accuracy takes a distant 2nd place to finding a sound that suits the listener. A little bit of character is good for the soul.

I think "fidelity to original sound" has taken a back seat because there are so few recordings anymore where you could ever tell.
 
Classical and jazz still tend to be very well recorded. Rock and pop have never had any reality to be faithful to. It has always been created in the studio right from the days of Elvis with his slap-back echo and Phil Spector's wall of (remarkably muddy) sound etc.
 
Classical and jazz still tend to be very well recorded. Rock and pop have never had any reality to be faithful to. It has always been created in the studio right from the days of Elvis with his slap-back echo and Phil Spector's wall of (remarkably muddy) sound etc.

I agree. And I'm almost exclusively a classical listener.

Similarly with a TV, other than calibrating the display, the easiest way to judge colour fidelity is colours we're very familiar with in real life - i.e. sky, grass, flesh skin tones - a live cricket match is a good test.

Whereas the latest cartoon feature is meaningless in terms of judging colour fidelity.

Cheers

John..
 
Classical and jazz still tend to be very well recorded. Rock and pop have never had any reality to be faithful to. It has always been created in the studio right from the days of Elvis with his slap-back echo and Phil Spector's wall of (remarkably muddy) sound etc.

Even Classical and Jazz frequently seem to be recorded "too close" and with too many microphones in recent years.
 
p.s On the basis of knowing Ashley James as a friend, it might interest some to know of this post he made this morning, elsewhere.

I'm having help to care for my wife now because she's nearing the end and the amount of help I'm getting is quite astonishing. It's no surprise that the NHS bill is a big one. However what is has shown me yet again is how genuinely incredibly kind and decent (lots of them) people are.


Cut him a bit of slack for a while, please chaps.

JC


Ashley's wife, Caroline, died yesterday evening. 22 Sept.

JC
 
I'm very sorry to hear that. My condolences to Ashley and his family.

Joe
 
On another forum the AVi DM10 appears to be gaining a name for high end sonic performance from an Active system at fraction of the cost of an average Active system. The AVI DM10 comprise of preamp, poweramps, crossover and speakers. Any one heard of them and what are your thoughts?
I've heard them (with a sub).

In a 3 system level matched extensive bake-off.

I prefered the sound of them (with a sub) over the Hegel 360 amplifier / ATC 11 speaker system...
 
I've heard them (with a sub).

In a 3 system level matched extensive bake-off.

I prefered the sound of them (with a sub) over the Hegel 360 amplifier / ATC 11 speaker system...

Did you like them though? (Preferring them over something else isn't necessarily liking them.)

What was the 3rd system being compared?
 
Chebby, the 3rd system started off as:

Denon C630 CD player (£15), NVA P50SA pre-amp (£166), Korneff 45 SET clone power amp (c£1250), EV Sentry III's (£415 + c£80 in repair parts).

About half way through we started using a laptop as an additional source which led to the NVA P50SA and Korneff 45 being swapped for a Creek CAS4040 integrated (£99).


I'd prefer it if the AVI and ATC owners commented publicly on their thoughts on this bake-off before I tell you what I think. That's to forestall any "You're just biased / You prefer the sound of pleasant distortion / You like crude PA type sound reproduction" type nonsense.
 
And the source of the information about new investors? And might news about new investors give the punters more confidence and help shift the stock in the shed of a company that is running down?

Just a postscript to this thread.

AVI has now changed ownership, so the the AVI Forum has been rebranded as the Unofficial AVI Forum.
 


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