AVI DM10 - Active System

[darrenyeats]

What you listen to is more important than how - every foo' kno'.

 

[Joe P]

John,

My approach to audio is buy what you like, like what you buy -- but for the love of all that's right and holy don't listen to shit music.

Joe

 

[Tony L]

What you listen to is more important than how - every foo' kno'.

I guess I'm lucky in having impeccable taste.

 

[kasperhauser]

S'true – his taste simply cannot be pecced.

 

[Joe P]

John,

I heard some JBL Everests a few weeks back - for scale and dynamics, very few passive separates systems I've heard could approach them, let alone match them.

Kit at this level is ridiculously expensive relative to what I make. I don't begrudge people who can afford it, or those who are willing to make sacrifices elsewhere so they can afford it, but I think you're kidding yourself if you think you need such equipment to "get" music.

If you follow that mindset, you'll think you'll need to spend half a million clams on speakers alone to appreciate string quartets, as this reviewer does --

Now, ask yourself this: how often do you play string quartets on your system at home? How often have you heard a system that allows you to play and enjoy string quartets? In fact, you might well ask, what’s the point of string quartets, period? Except that just about every major classical composer wrote them, and for many they are considered amongst their major works. Why? Because the instrumentation allows an incisive temporal precision to the playing that, combined with the massive dynamic contrasts available, can create exactly the drama and intensity I described above -- a level of drama and intensity that escapes virtually all audio systems. Indeed, most hi-fi renders string quartets, especially the later examples, as little more than random noise.

Contrast that with the delivery of the VO/VE, where instrumental lines are perfectly intelligible, structures explicit and contrasts dramatically effective. What the Living Voice speakers do is preserve the musical conversation that’s at the core of any string quartet. They follow the debate, trace the cut and thrust, reveal the soto voce aside or the bombastic flourish. What they do is preserve and present the sense of the piece -- and they do it effortlessly and utterly without constraint.

That final sentence contains the essence of the VO/VE achievement. These speakers are all about the sense of the music, the intent of the performers. They are all about what happens when, where and why. They’re all about the relationship between the players and the notes they play -- and that’s all down to their ability to preserve the nature and level of the energy that makes up each note.

Joe

 

[Tony L]

I frequently find myself absolutely captivated by string quartets via my little near-field rig of an SACD player, vintage Leak tube amp and JR149s. Stick something like this Bartok Takács Quartet CD on, turn out the light and be transported right into the event. The Mozart Hagen box I started a thread on in the classic room (here) is just as convincing too. Really amazing stuff IMHO, i.e. no need to spend a fortune on huge speakers assuming one can listen up-close and doesn't want ear damage due to high volumes. Sure, there is some stuff where that real dynamic ease, scale and effortlessness you and I take for granted with 15" Tannoys is very welcome, but a good little 'un can be remarkably good too! I'm pretty sure the string quartet is my favourite classical music form so a system that can't do them well is of little use to me. Big crossover with Blue Note, Riverside etc era jazz here too, if a system can nail one it can do the other just as well IME.

PS Aformentioned Leak/149 system is currently sounding rather wonderful playing tonight's Bach Mass in B Minor on period instuments Prom via quaint old fashoined FM!

 

[garyi]

I've recently done just that - flat out the very best loudspeaker I've ever heard at reproducing music, ever, and by a considerable margin.

Yet to hear a Steinway Lyngdorf system, or perhaps MBL Radialstrahlers, but compared to the rest of the 'mainstream' - i.e. the big 800 series B&W's, KEFS, Tannoys, etc, the Beolab 90s are on another level again as regards 'the closest approach to the original sound"

Cheers

John

how are you aware of the 'original sound?'

were you there?

 

[Joe P]

Gary,

The only way you can really know for sure is to record your farts then play them back through your hi-fi.

If your wife runs into (or should that be away from?) the listening room, convinced you have just farted, you know the system provides the closest approach to the original sound.

Joe

 

[Tony L]

how are you aware of the 'original sound?'

were you there?

I can pull several things out of my record collection where I was, and trust me it doesn't help! Having a reasonable mental image of a studio control room sound does help though, and that is what I try to emulate at home these days, but you'll never really know what is on the tape as there are just too many variables. There is no accurate/no reference point beyond the original monitor mix sound, which is usually a compromise between the specific full-range, mid-field and near-field monitors in that specific studio anyway. It always makes me giggle when people assume there is a 'correct' thing to reproduce somewhere. There just isn't!

PS Thinking about it, what Joe said.

 

[Craig B]

Joe,

That made me laugh so hard I passed wind.

Unfortunately, there wasn't enough time to fire up my legacy Nakamichi, load a cassette, set the record equalization, bias, and recording levels sufficiently in order to accurately preserve the event for the purpose of future system fidelity tests involving family members whom are reluctantly familiar with my audible gastrointestinal emissions.

Should I consider going digital?

Craig

 

[Joe P]

Craig,

There's probably a puerile joke in here about digital rectal exams, but I'm not going to make it.

No, sir, I'm not going to do it.

Joe

 

[Craig B]

Joe,

What a coincidence, my new GP is a lovely young lass who prefers legacy single digit examinations!

Craig

 

[Jonboi]

John,


Kit at this level is ridiculously expensive relative to what I make. I don't begrudge people who can afford it, or those who are willing to make sacrifices elsewhere so they can afford it, but I think you're kidding yourself if you think you need such equipment to "get" music.

If you follow that mindset, you'll think you'll need to spend half a million clams on speakers alone to appreciate string quartets, as this reviewer does --



Joe

I agree that one does not need such expensive kit to listen to and appreciate music.

I actually heard the Everests at a recent international HiFi show I went to - the first in at least a decade.

Items heard and observed of note:

Sennheiser HD 800/800S coupled with a Sennheiser dedicated headphone amp

B&W 800D's driven by Classe mono blocks

JBL Everests driven by Melody Valve amps


The Sennheisers would probably be all anyone would want for a HiFi system, provided you don't mind the limitations of phone listening. $5,000.00 a snip for cans and amp.

The B&W 800's committed few if any sins, but were relatively lacking in dynamics and scale compared to what one hears from live music $40,000 + for speakers, $36, 000.00 for two mono blocks.

The JBL Everests were $125,000 - no idea on the cost of the valve amps or the anaconda snake cables... but as mentioned, the dynamics and scale were the only speakers I heard at the show that could reproduce the dynamics and scale of live music as it is heard - hence my commenting as the technology is not far removed form the likes of Tannoys, or Klipsch etc.

Demographics

Very interesting in that there were lots of ageing baby boomers in their sixties, swooning over exotic turntables and the usual audiophile microwave oven size amp and wrist thick speaker cables etc. None of it really sounded like live music - merely a very good facsimile.

And lots of Hairy Hipsters, listening to all manner of cans and head amps.

It was a sobering experience - most of the mega buck separates gear barely qualified as hiFi in my view - with the Sennheiser combo having overall the best, as in most realistic, reproduction of music, probably followed by the Everests. The big B&W's would come third, because whilst very low colouration/distortion and exceptionally accurate re tonal/vocal timbre with good spatial perspectives, they sounded somewhat 'sat on' and 'flat' dynamically compared to live music.

My thoughts on leaving the show were that so called high end audio/separates systems have really lost the plot in terms of attracting any new customers apart from the baby boomer/converted.

None of the Hairy Hipsters were really interested in the mega buck systems.

And again, most of them failed to convince that one was listening to live music.

Coming back to the start of this thread, and discussions about AVI active speakers, I would opinion that integrated active systems designed by tertiary trained experts at the highest level are the way forward for the music connoisseur who wants access to high quality music reproduction in the home, but has little interest in spending either megabucks, or the mix and match mindset of current audiophiles, whose system building methodology dates back to the 1950's.

Nothing wrong with that - it certainly works for baby boomer audiophile/hobbyists - but that market is dying out fast, and to my mind, as i say, compact, high performance active systems that will play all of todays media and for sensible money, is the way the upcoming market and it's buyers will likely go.

Just my 2c

Cheers

John

 

[Jonboi]

how are you aware of the 'original sound?'

were you there?

I believe it was Peter Walker of Quad who coined that phrase "The closest approach to the original sound"

Some seem to think the 'original sound' should be what was heard in a concert hall (assuming a classical recording).

With the limitations of two channel stereo systems, I'd argue that's not really possible.

A more realistic goal might be for the system to reproduce as accurately as possible, with as little added noise and distortion as possible, what the recording engineer heard in the mixing room and laid down on the digital master.

And so, yes, unless I was the recording engineer, or was present at the time of recording, of course I cannot 'know' just what the exact original sound was.

However, I am a trained classical musician, in piano, trumpet and voice, and am intimately familiar with those instruments.

So when I play some music using instruments I know exceptionally well and play, over a hiFi system, the one that is the most accurate, and adding the least noise and distortion, is the one that sounds most like 'the original sound' re the instruments I play.

Bear in mind that there is no such thing as a generic piano sound; a Bosendorfer sounds tonally different to a Steinway, to a Yamaha, to a Kawai.

A REALLY good system will let you hear those subtle tonal differences - most don't.

Then there is musical expression - musical dynamics - again most systems don't have the sort of transient response needed to render the subtlest nuance of rubato for example, so as to be totally convincing musically - i.e. I could be listening to live music and not an otherwise excellent facsimile.

I appreciate you are well trained in the art of assembling and listening to HiFi's - I can only offer you musical explanations as to what I heard, and I stand by my comments re the beolab 90's.

Perhaps you should go and have a listen and form your own conclusions?

Cheers

John...

 

[clivem2]

It seems to me that musicians can every bit as analytical as audiophiles - in different ways. I couldn't tell you the differentcebetween a Bosendorfer and a Steinway, I am interesting tonal colour and dynamics but I'm also interested in other aspects which a musician likely would rate at a low or non-existent priority. We all decide what's important for our pleasure and how we want to follow music. There probably are systems out there that would have SQ appeal to everyone but I expect they are very few and far between and then other considerations will come into play (ie size, style, cost).

 

[Tony L]

The other thing to point out is the musician's perspective of sitting/standing right in the middle of the performance and the audience or recording of that event could not be more different! This is especially true with acoustic instruments, classical, jazz etc. Even the front row of the audience is very much quieter and more subdued (yet far more evenly balanced) to what one hears on stage. One has to decide at the recording stage as to what perspective one is attempting to reproduce/create. It is very often a perspective that never actually existed at all in reality, e.g. a blend of close and ambient microphone positions to kind of give a 'best of all worlds' viewpoint.

The closest to 'real' that can possibly exist IMHO is the control room/mastering room monitor sound. This being a significant reason why I have a pair of classic full-range control room/mastering room monitors! A huge amount of my favourite music was born through such things.

 

[adamdea]

The other thing to point out is the musician's perspective of sitting/standing right in the middle of the performance and the audience or recording of that event could not be more different! This is especially true with acoustic instruments, classical, jazz etc. Even the front row of the audience is very much quieter and more subdued (yet far more evenly balanced) to what one hears on stage. One has to decide at the recording stage as to what perspective one is attempting to reproduce/create. It is very often a perspective that never actually existed at all in reality, e.g. a blend of close and ambient microphone positions to kind of give a 'best of all worlds' viewpoint.

The closest to 'real' that can possibly exist IMHO is the control room/mastering room monitor sound. This being a significant reason why I have a pair of classic full-range control room/mastering room monitors! A huge amount of my favourite music was born through such things.

I suppose you could make a case for orchestral music that the conductor's view is the most compelling view of reality.

Also-re the control room/mastering room how important for the engineers/artists concerned are monitor speakers vs headphones in assessing the sound?.

 

[Tony L]

Also-re the control room/mastering room how important for the engineers/artists concerned are monitor speakers vs headphones in assessing the sound?.

Back in my day headphones didn't factor, you just tried to get a mix that would sound good both on the full-range Tannoys, JBLs or whatever (the reference point) and also the Auratones, NS10s or whatever to make sure it worked on cheaper LF-limited domestic audio, AM radio, in the car (cars had terrible speakers back then) etc. Now I expect headphones are a huge factor and I hear a lot of modern pop music with exceptionally deep and powerful bass of the type that would never be audible through portable radios, small two-way stand-mount speakers etc, so I assume engineers and musos are now targeting headphone wearers and clubs as the primary userbase.

Classical and jazz has always been mixed on and for proper monitor grade speakers as far as I'm aware. The assumption being that the listener would have a proper hi-fi system and be listening at home. There is obviously some compression on radio broadcasts, even Radio 3, but on balance it is very well done. The thing I find interesting here is even though no attempt has been made to EQ the bass to sound good on little bass-limited speakers the way so much rock and pop is it still sounds very listenable even on something like the little Roberts mono radio I have in the bathroom! I guess classical is rarely driven by the bass and kick drum! ;-)

 

[Joe P]

John,

I bought HD800 cans several years ago because I was offered a pair at a great price. They really are excellent and dig deeper into the recording than anything else I've heard bar the top Stax cans, but I find my cheap Grados about as equally enjoyable.

My point is that we get caught up in the game and think we need perfection to enjoy music. I'm also not in the position to be constantly upgrading so my circumstance is partly driving this but I have to say it's great to finally stop worrying about the hi fi.

Joe

 

[adamdea]

The thing I find interesting here is even though no attempt has been made to EQ the bass to sound good on little bass-limited speakers the way so much rock and pop is it still sounds very listenable even on something like the little Roberts mono radio I have in the bathroom! I guess classical is rarely driven by the bass and kick drum! ;-)

Yes agreed. Even where the bass or kettle drums are used, it tends not to be the rhythmic core. That said, I've often thought that the Rite of Spring was quite like rock music in places. (apparently Zappa loved it). Also maybe last movement of beethoven 7.

What I find the transistor radio tends not to do well is separating out an orchestra into the individual parts.