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Are there any really good Phono Stages that don't cost thousands?

paskinn said:
Well, another unfashionable choice, but the Cambridge 641p is a good little unit; There are people always 'improving' it (and maybe they do) but I've compared it to some good stages costing many thousands....and it holds up perfectly well. You don't get the ultimate detail and dynamics but you get a high quality , well balanced, sound. For £120.
I use a very simple test. Would using the Cambridge spoil my musical enjoyment (compared with stages costing 25 times as much.) And the answer is : Not really.

You certainly can spend a lot more and get better (I have) but you really don't need to. You just don't. And for £500 (MM only) the Croft reigns supreme, for my tastes anyway.
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Across two thread you are recommending a Shure cartridge that costs about £70 and a Cambridge phono for £120. It's an intoxicating argument, that vinyl bliss can be had for this cost. However, at the risk of going ad hominem (!), your argument is slightly undercut by your personal use of the Croft 25RS and the Aurorasound Vida.

Incidentally I have the Croft MM in my second system (in a Micro 25), and intend to use that with the Grado once my 401 is reconstructed.
 
Elephantears said:
Fletcher Omega Point 5, so not suspended. Audio Note arm (one of the new ones).
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Its a fine deck and to get the best out of it, (as in all things hifi) explicitly careful matching of amp/cart is essential and a potentially expensive mistake...ok not mistake perhaps but loss of potential verses expenditure. Ive been using a Michell full ORB which is currently up for sale in the classifieds and awaiting delivery of my Transrotor Reference Orion which is also a mass deck (moving away from suspoension in the traditional sense) and a magnetic drive; so Im very much in the same boat of plodding around the mine field with fingers stuck in ears and eyes tightly squeezed shut. Im thinking about a Van de hul Colibri...was interested in 47 labs Mc Bee but very little out there known about them to gleen some info from long time users of that particular cart.
 
I was also very interested in the 47 Labs MC Bee. It sounds perfect from what I read. However I called MAX, who distribute it, and it's more expensive than I thought - in Cadenza Black territory. My one further thought has been that I could potentially buy one from over the Atlantic when I go to Canada this summer. Planet of Sound, an Ottawa and Toronto based audio shop who I respect, sell this cart and they rave about it. But of course I can't hear it in my system then.
 
Like most things hifi these days I buy from the continent or stateside. My last buy was an amp that in the UK the best price i was quoted was 8.3K(after discount). Delivered from Germany to my home brand spanking new and it cost me 4800£...and its a British make!
 
Robert said:
Start out at base camp and consider the job of the phono stage.

To take a very small signal at typically <3mv, boost it to around 1v while applying an internationally agreed EQ curve.

To do this with inaudible noise and distortion (in a good domestic system setting) and EQ accuracy within 0.25dB limits costs a few hundred pounds given the simple circuitry required. If a stage costs thousands I would be seriously asking why, since there is absolutely no technical reason why it should.
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Yes basically correct--the finest Phono stage I've heard cost peanuts by todays pricing

An innovatively simple and effective design from Lionel Seemungal and Walter Yip collective as the Trinidad connection Passive Phono

Sublime and pure an absolute joy to listen to

Google them for a precíse/etc--very interesting

D41
 
Elephantears said:
Across two thread you are recommending a Shure cartridge that costs about £70 and a Cambridge phono for £120. It's an intoxicating argument, that vinyl bliss can be had for this cost. However, at the risk of going ad hominem (!), your argument is slightly undercut by your personal use of the Croft 25RS and the Aurorasound Vida.
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Over the decades I've spent quite a lot; Audio Research, Krell, Rowland, Conrad Johnson, Audionote, Chord.....actually that's a small part of my adventures. Same with speakers and so on. Lots and lots of exotic and usually good equipment. In cartridges I've used quite a few Koetsus, Vdh, Supex, Dynavector....etc etc. At least fifteen arms, Triplaner, Graham, VPI, at least 12 SME arms...and so on. You get the drift. Three SME 30 decks, one of them a 30-12. I say this to illustrate my point, not to boast (you could say I'm daft to spend so much .)

I don't recommend less expensive stuff out of perversity, but because that is what I hear. The whole notion of 'hierachy' in audio is quite problematic...not least because there is little objective sign that cheaper electronics are inferior..they measure just as well as pricey stuff (often). Even quite cheap speakers an now be pretty fine.
This is not an argument against costly audio...rather, a suggestion that excellent sound is available for comparatively little. And that certainly includes Shure and Cambridge Audio.
To put it simply: it is foolish to assess or rank audio on price. It's either good or it isn't. Reagdless of what it cost.
 
Yes, I certainly agree, and during the decades of your high end experimentation I was mostly using a cheap cart into the phono stage of an Onix 21. I don't think you're being perverse in your recommendation, and I'm keen to try the Shure - in my second system, with a Croft phono stage.
 
Elephantears said:
Whilst we're on blowsy (which we are all spelling differently, but correctly, incidentally), I've actually been talking to the person (who shall remain nameless) who used that term in relation to the PS3. It's worth noting that he is a MI/MM fan, not an MC user, so he probably had enough ripeness in the cartridge already. If most MCs are leaner then I guess this kind of approach is just what they need.

Time will tell whether a different cartridge will provide a more suitable synergy with my existing Diablo/NCPSU, or whether I will need to start from the phono stage. This seems to me the hardest part of audio to get right, there being so many factors. But I'm gathering together a few things to try at home so hope to come to some conclusions within a couple of weeks.

m4m, what cart are you using with the PS3?

One other factor we perhaps neglect is the synergy between the phono stage and the pre. In this respect, I wonder if I should try a Whest P30SR. People often say this tends towards the lean and detailed, but I've heard it in a system with my amps (Unico Pre/DM) and there was a definite synergy. Hmmm...
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I moved from a dv75 mk2 to a whest 30r a few years back and that was a substantial upgrade. James at Whest will buy your existing phono stage and will make a deal so that may well come in to your budget.
On the other hand, I would think carefully about the pending Tron. I moved to a Tron 7 and that was again a significant upgrade but perhaps more interestingly the Tron may give you a different sound you like.
Plenty choice especially if you go second hand...
 
Elephantears said:
Aha, an intervention on behalf of reason and objectivity!

With your points in mind, Robert, the question remains, in its bluntest terms; is there a cheapish one as good as the posh ones?
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The question would also remain as to why Robert has not designed built and marketed a giant killing phono stage himself - given that it is so remarkably easy to design.
 
Fairly conventional, but well engineered designs like Graham Slee and the Black Cubes actually have a component cost only tens of dollars above a NAD PP1
The rest is down to low volumes to amortise costs over
 
The Tron gear is really beautifully made - I've never heard any but the build quality is as good as it gets.
 
mikemusic said:
Close !

I'll be doing my final testing tomorrow to check the VIDA is better than the Whest
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I've never heard a Whest, but the Vida is a very special bit of Japanese boutique audio...it's the ability to capture scale and detail without 'etch' that sold me on the Vida. And you'll get no odd 'noise' issues either.
 
Robert said:
Start out at base camp and consider the job of the phono stage.

To take a very small signal at typically <3mv, boost it to around 1v while applying an internationally agreed EQ curve.

To do this with inaudible noise and distortion (in a good domestic system setting) and EQ accuracy within 0.25dB limits costs a few hundred pounds given the simple circuitry required. If a stage costs thousands I would be seriously asking why, since there is absolutely no technical reason why it should.
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Yes, it doesn't cost much to make a basic phono stage. However, a basic circuit such as the one you are kind-of describing can obviously be improved on!
 
Blzebub said:
Yes, it doesn't cost much to make a basic phono stage. However, a basic circuit such as the one you are kind-of describing can obviously be improved on!
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How?

If the RIAA EQ is accurate, the gain is high enough, the noise low enough to be inaudible, how do you improve it?

merlin said:
The question would also remain as to why Robert has not designed built and marketed a giant killing phono stage himself - given that it is so remarkably easy to design.
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Cambridge Audio already did that.
Slightly more expensive are perfectly good designs from Rega, Naim and Rotel for a few hundred quid.

Now much as I might like it otherwise, little old me can't compete with a company the size of CA.
But if you want to grab yourself a copy of Doug Self's Small Signal cookbook and spend some time on the topic, you too could produce a perfectly good phono stage for not much cash. But there's no need.
Here's one I cooked earlier, dual mono too - whoopydoo! :)





And no I won't be selling them.
Buy a Cambridge Audio.
 
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