Acoustic guitars

[HairyHaggis]

Back to the very early seventies everybody had a suzuki classical in their collection. I also had a yairi for some time. They were pretty good, well built workhorses but I don't think that the Japanese ever really understood wood, it's structure and properties as well as their longer established European counterparts. Moving on to european guitars, especially Spanish, showed just how soulless some Japanese models could be, in terms of responsiveness, resonance and harmonic structure. I think there are some fantastic builders around today and buying a keeper is probably a year's work for most.
Saw segovia many times and completely agree, there's an argument to be had that he should maybe have stopped public performance before he actually did. The final time I saw him, he was clearly just going through the motions.

 

[Tony L]

My guitar teacher constantly raves about Segovia, especially his sound, and I never quite understood why. My problem was that I had watched too many videos Segovia made in the seventies onwards when he was, technically, way past his prime.

I saw him play right towards the end of his life, would have been 1983 or 84, and I can’t even remember where (would have been Huddersfield, Leeds or possibly Manchester). My girlfriend at the time was a classical music student, so I saw a fair bit of interesting stuff around that point. I remember him being very old and frial, but still able to play well to my untrained ears.

 

[Tony L]

Got the Yamaha G-85A. Its in very respectable condition for a guitar something like 48 years old. The odd scratch and ding here and there, but nothing structural I can see. Certainly tidier than most you see.

The action is pretty extreme at 5mm on the bass side, 4mm on the treble - it looks like the neck has relaxed a bit centred at the 12th fret where it joins the body. There is plenty of height on the bridge, so I’ll be able to get the majority of the neck playing better by whacking a mm or so off the back end of the bone. The strings are old and feel very high tension, so the first thing I’m going to do is get them off and start feeding the bone-dry fretboard. That may well help the neck move back a bit. I’ve ordered a set of the D’Arddario strings linked upthread, but the lightest guage again hoping the neck will shift back a little under reduced tension. I’ll be interested to see how much the relief alters without the strings on! I’m certainly confident I can get it to play pretty nicely up to the 12th fret even if it ends up buzzing a bit above that point.

 

[dadgad]

Worth getting into the habit of thumb tip behind neck as in vid. Many electric guitar players wrap thumb tip around neck to hold down low E string. This can cause issues with trying to progress on classical.

Absolutely! I started playing a classical guitar as a lad and even though I play steel string now, the habit of getting the thumb behind the neck and the hand relaxed below is more or less ingrained. It saves a lot of pain, as wrapping the thumb round a thick neck can give really uncomfortable cramp across the palm of the hand.

 

[matthewr]

Keep your wrist straight is the most important hand position advice. Stops RSI if you play a lot.

 

[Tony L]

Spent the afternoon working on the Yam and I think it should end up pretty good. Tatty old strings are off, I’ve had the tuners off and thoroughly cleaned them. There are cracks in two of the plastic rollers, but they seem stable and perfectly able to hold tuning (I could easily get it in tune with the old strings). I’ve given the fretboard a damn good oiling (the first of many, it really is dry as a bone) and I’ve taken about a mm and a half off the backside of the bridge which should hopefully equate to an action of about 4.2/3.2 or so when restrung assuming I’ve got my maths right! Easy enough to shim higher if I've gone too far, but I suspect I’m over being cautious here and may need to take a bit more off. That seems to be the action most classical players like even though it sounds monstrously high to me! I think the neck movement mentioned above is pretty typical for an old acoustic; its straight until it hits the 12th fret body join, then straight again after, i.e. the issue is actually a little give in the neck-joint/body, not a bow in the neck itself. It is pretty minor, but is certainly the thing responsible for the initially very high action. I’d consider it a real issue with an electric, but given the target action is just over 4mm it should be easy enough to deal with!

As to the guitar itself it definitely has a laminated top, and I assume sides, though to my surprise the rosette and ornate bit on the bridge does appear to be wood inlay, not a transfer. There is no distortion in the top, it seems perfectly flat and true and the bridge is nice and flush with no sign of pulling up. All the internal bracing seems sollid and there don’t seem to be any clicks, clacks or rattles when tapped anywhere, so I’m pretty confident it is structurally sound. I’m hoping it will sound pretty good with the new strings assuming I can get the action in a zone I can cope with. Certainly these old Yams seem well liked by people who know a hell of a lot more about classical guitars than I ever will.

PS One thing that just occurred to me is that given this guitar seems so dry I wonder if some time in a case with a humidifier wouldn’t shift that neck joint back a little? I haven’t got an acoustic-sized case, or a humidifier, which makes testing that theory a little awkward though...

 

[venton]

High action is normal in my limited experience. Yours seems fine.
This stuff is the mutts nuts for the body.

Gerlitz GNO No.1 Carnauba Guitar Wax https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000EEHJS8/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

 

[Cheese]

Keep your wrist straight is the most important hand position advice. Stops RSI if you play a lot.

Absolutely. The tragedy is just that if you don't learn this very early in your life, this is going to take several years. It seems so obvious when looking at the wrist of a good player, I'm afraid it isn't. And by all means, don't forget to warm up and stretch your wrists before and after playing.

If you want to have a reference in posture, arm and hand positioning, have a look at (and listen to) John Williams. Not only his playing is perfect, his interviews are very interesting too.

 

[Tony L]

High action is normal in my limited experience. Yours seems fine.
This stuff is the mutts nuts for the body.

Gerlitz GNO No.1 Carnauba Guitar Wax https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000EEHJS8/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

Just using one of the old strings as a straight-edge I’ve now got an action of 4mm bass and 3mm treble after sanding a good bit off the bottom edge of the bridge, so allowing for a full new set to apply some tension I think I’ll be about where I need to be (I was aiming at 4.2/3.2, as that seems to about typical for a good classical guitar). It will feel bizarre adapting to such high action compared to playing electric guitars (my SC1200 is under 2mm on the bass!), but I’m sure a nice new set of light strings will help!

I’ve got one of these Gibson cleaning kits which has a full set of appropriate cleaners and fretboard oil. It just cleans the body rather than waxing it, but is safe with all finishes.

One thing I forgot to mention is the G-85A is surprisingly long scale at 658mm, most electric guitars being 648 (Fender) or 628mm (Gibson). It seems long for a classical too, most being 650, though 640 is pretty common too.

 

[Tony L]

Absolutely. The tragedy is just that if you don't learn this very early in your life, this is going to take several years. It seems so obvious when looking at the wrist of a good player, I'm afraid it isn't. And by all means, don't forget to warm up and stretch your wrists before and after playing.

If you want to have a reference in posture, arm and hand positioning, have a look at (and listen to) John Williams. Not only his playing is perfect, his interviews are very interesting too.

Obviously as an entirely self-taught bass "player" who's been "playing" since '79 or '80 I'm literally infested with bad habits! By saying that, much as I admire such players and love the music, I'm not attempting to be Segovia, Bream, Williams or whoever. I'm far more interested in trying to pick up a few Charlie Byrd, Wes Montgomery, Joao Gilberto etc type chords and grooves, which will still be a huge learning curve for me, but thankfully not quite as rigid or disciplined as pure classical playing. The whole pointing the guitar up at a 45 degree angle thing of classical feels decidedly odd to someone so used to electric instruments, but I can really understand the logic as it places your picking hand at a very sensible angle. I'll certainly be giving that a good go once I've finished restoring this guitar. Jazz players seem split on this one, some adopt a classical 'stance', some don't.

I don't have huge hands or fingers; I'm not a tiny hand freak like Trump, but certainly no Hendrix either, so the width of the classical neck will actually force me to stick my thumb on the back. There is just no way I could form a barre chord on it without. The Yamaha nut is 52mm, so about average from what I can tell. I'll adapt in time.

 

[Cheese]

but I can really understand the logic as it places your picking hand at a very sensible angle

... and it allows for far greater stretches on the left hand. And it allows you to see you what you are doing. It just looks silly.

 

[imarks]

I’ve given the fretboard a damn good oiling (the first of many, it really is dry as a bone) ...

What sort of oil do you use for this and is it a good idea to oil the fret board of all guitars every once in a while?

 

[HairyHaggis]

What sort of oil do you use for this and is it a good idea to oil the fret board of all guitars every once in a while?

f-one or roche-thomas are both very good. maybe once a year, lightly, depending on use and wood. ebony not as much. more open grained rosewoods more frequently. avoid petroleum based products and don't overdo as this will open the grain

 

[Tony L]

What sort of oil do you use for this and is it a good idea to oil the fret board of all guitars every once in a while?

I use the Gibson stuff linked above, it doesn’t actually say what it is, but I’m pretty sure it is some variation on lemon oil. Most fretboard oils are. It has made quite a difference to the old Yamaha, the fretboard is looking far more fresh and healthy after a few applications. It really was crazy dry!

Definitely worth doing, essential really. You should do it to any guitar with an open pore rosewood board every string change. Lots of choice here.

 

[imarks]

Thanks HairyHaggis and Tony for the replies, I've ordered some Jim Dunlop Lemon oil from Amazon. I guess my guitars are all well overdue for some attention then both more than 20 years old and never oiled

 

[matthewr]

Be careful what you put on it if your guitar fretboard has a finish though -- like a shiny maple board -- as some cleaners will ruin that.

Having watched lots of youtube videos there are differing opinions. For rosewood the grizzled old guitar techs seem to use naptha (i.e. zippo light fluid) to clean fretboards and then polish with very fine (04) wire wool. Everyone agrees that oil should be done in moderation and some argue that you don't want to use any oil on an old fretboard that has not been maintained as it can cause problems.

It's all very confusing.

 

[Tony L]

A damp cloth is really all you should ever need on a shiny finished maple board/neck. A lot of Fenders have very thin finishes which wear down real fast, these would certainly be up for debate, but most coated maple necks are fully sealed under a thick finish (varnish, polyurethane or whatever) and are very strong, stable and easy to clean. I have to admit on a filthy second hand guitar I’d go straight for my clean everything Servisol Foam Cleanser 30 as it just gets shut of all manner of vile grime, nicotine etc, but obviously not for a rosewood board.

Fender finishes are a world unto themselves. Both mine (an 82 Strat and a AVRI 76 Jazz Bass) are from/recreating the era of really thick polyurethane finish which is very easy to work with and only wears after remarkable abuse. The thinner nitrocellulose finish of real vintage Fenders and many Custom Shop instruments is a different thing and needs a whole different approach. Probably best just to accept the ageing and not use anything more than a slightly damp cloth to keep the guitar clean.

 

[gavreid]

Linseed oil. A few drops and wipe straight off. Lemon oil is most likely carcinogenic.

 

[Stunsworth]

Or maybe this - they have a YouTube channel and at least one video deals with these fretboard products...

https://crimsonguitars.com/store/fretboard-cleaner-restorative/

 

[gavreid]

I think the Crimson oil is just a mineral oil