Labour conference 2019, Tom Watson, Momentum etc

[vuk]

Why are Labour so far behind in the polls given we have possibly the most treacherous and deceitful PM in our history? Maybe it has nothing to do with Corbyn's toxicity with voters, but is solely down to a "coordinated establishment/Blairite/right-wing/media". Silly me, why didn't I realise?

the reason you may be having difficulty is that it's not a "coordinated" effort by the antagonists, but the efforts of independent actors striving for similar ends by similar means, even whilst competing with one another. you can see the exact same thing with bernie sanders in the USA, the big difference being they can't, for obvious reasons. pull out the anti-semitism smear they way they've done with other progressives (and even corbyn, to make their global "point").

 

[ks.234]

Are you referring to Ofsted? I don't think it should be abolished, steps have already been taken to make the inspection progress less stressful. I am in favour of more reform on this front but abolishing it is a political misstep if nothing else; just gives the Govt an easy line of attack. I do think league tables should be scrapped, they are utterly meaningless, drive up house prices & increase inequality.

Yes, agree largely. It’s not the inspection process itself, but the way some heads react to it. I’ve come across heads demanding detailed lesson plans pretty must constantly just because they anticipate an inspection, regardless of the fact that Ofsted don’t look at lesson plans anymore. To be honest it’s the Performance Management Process and Teacher Standards that really needs a good look at, it’s that tiny little bit in Teacher Standards about ‘making a contribution to the wider school’ that is being used to get teachers to volunteer for more and more extra curricular stuff just to pass their PM

 

[vuk]

Can you remind us, how would Scottish independence in 2014 have made Scotland economically better off? Were you considering more than short term economics?

nobody can answer a question like that with any worthwhile precision. similarly, you can not defend yours. the problem begins with the mere definition of what is considered within the scope of "economics" and then how to weight all the variables. it is a mess of value judgment and statistical predictive chaos.

 

[matthewr]

Anyone not fixated on the idea ‘better off’ can only be in relation to money could well think he meant something other than how you define ‘better off’.

Money in this sense refers to the economy so what we are really talking about here is more jobs and an improved health service.

 

[matthewr]

nobody can answer a question like that with any worthwhile precision. similarly, you can not defend yours. the problem begins with the mere definition of what is considered within the scope of "economics" and then how to weight all the variables. it is a mess of value judgment and statistical predictive chaos.

This is not true in regards to trade -- in both cases the size of the nearest neighbours and the current levels of zero trade and non-trade barriers mean that both England and Scotland would be worse off outside of their respective unions. This is one of the longest and best evidenced aspects of economics and has been repeatedly verified in the real world.

 

[Brian]

nobody can answer a question like that with any worthwhile precision. similarly, you can not defend yours. the problem begins with the mere definition of what is considered within the scope of "economics" and then how to weight all the variables. it is a mess of value judgment and statistical predictive chaos.

When someone is critical of others for 3 years for supposedly not knowing what they were voting for I expect that person to be able to explain what they were voting for. Especially when it appears that person voted to make Scotland economically worse off.

As for ‘you can not defend yours’, I’m not trying to. That ‘better off’ can mean something other than economically doesn’t need defending. It’s obvious.

 

[Brian]

Money in this sense refers to the economy so what we are really talking about here is more jobs and an improved health service.

Yes, I know that. Didn’t think I needed to be quite so literal but then maybe I should have known.

Define ‘improved’. My view is the performance of the NHS is to do with UK govt policy much more than membership of the EU regardless of money. We could remain members of the EU for decades ahead, have a much stronger economy but the NHS will not ‘improve’ while we have a tory govt. Feel free to disagree as usual.

 

[vuk]

This is not true in regards to trade -- in both cases the size of the nearest neighbours and the current levels of zero trade and non-trade barriers mean that both England and Scotland would be worse off outside of their respective unions. This is one of the longest and best evidenced aspects of economics and has been repeatedly verified in the real world.

well, i'll admit to having made one of those wide-reaching claims that isn't specific enough to be useful. i would probably also agree that a single nation striking out on its own is probably not a great idea in terms of conventional measures. in the end though, i'd gladly give up 25% (or more) of my wealth for a very different society. also, if we look at the upcoming decades, is counting on things like jobs a great idea?

 

[matthewr]

Yes, I know that. Didn’t think I needed to be quite so literal but then maybe I should have known.

Define ‘improved’. My view is the performance of the NHS is to do with UK govt policy much more than membership of the EU regardless of money. We could remain members of the EU for decades ahead, have a much stronger economy but the NHS will not ‘improve’ while we have a tory govt. Feel free to disagree as usual.

The two are not linked though. I.e. The same government inside the EU would have more money to devote to the NHS.

I don't know why you have to keep being quite so obnoxious in your replies to me. I have tried striping my replies down to the most straightforward statement of facts and it doesn't seem to make any difference.

 

[Nick_G]

The two are not linked though. I.e. The same government inside the EU would have more money to devote to the NHS.

I don't know why you have to keep being quite so obnoxious in your replies to me. I have tried striping my replies down to the most straightforward statement of facts and it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Don't worry Matthew. He's like that with pretty much everyone.

 

[matthewr]

in the end though, i'd gladly give up 25% (or more) of my wealth for a very different society. also, if we look at the upcoming decades, is counting on things like jobs a great idea?

I would also prefer to live in the world of the Culture novels

 

[SteveT]

Have to say it was good of vuk to step in and try and defend TheDecameron because he certainly couldn't. Trouble is the gibberish that he used was on a par with TheDecameron so no one is any wiser!

 

[maxflinn]

You really need to look at the impact of Corbyn's leadership on the voting public to see the damage he is doing to Labour. And don't tell me they are all brainwashed by the anti-Corbyn establishment for God's sake.

Gassor, here’s a message from our great leader on how the establishment close ranks.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1175791983962591233?s=21

 

[Tony L]

Andrew Fisher, the spad behind the last Labour Manifesto, has exited citing a lack of competence and decency in the leadership team (Guardian).

 

[Woodface]

Yes, agree largely. It’s not the inspection process itself, but the way some heads react to it. I’ve come across heads demanding detailed lesson plans pretty must constantly just because they anticipate an inspection, regardless of the fact that Ofsted don’t look at lesson plans anymore. To be honest it’s the Performance Management Process and Teacher Standards that really needs a good look at, it’s that tiny little bit in Teacher Standards about ‘making a contribution to the wider school’ that is being used to get teachers to volunteer for more and more extra curricular stuff just to pass their PM

It is very, very difficult to get rid of a poor performing teacher so if one is just average it is impossible. I can understand how Heads can micromanage in such circumstances, teachers have it easier than they used to, compared to 10-20 years ago TBF, & they are better paid. Ofsted is miles better than it used to be under Chris Woodhead, week long inspections, inspectors trained to be utterly ruthless. Ultimately you need some kind of inspection regime but it needs to be fit for purpose.

 

[Cav]

Andrew Fisher, the spad behind the last Labour Manifesto, has exited citing a lack of competence and decency in the leadership team (Guardian).

There is no way Corbyn can survive this....

 

[ks.234]

It is very, very difficult to get rid of a poor performing teacher so if one is just average it is impossible. I can understand how Heads can micromanage in such circumstances, teachers have it easier than they used to, compared to 10-20 years ago TBF, & they are better paid. Ofsted is miles better than it used to be under Chris Woodhead, week long inspections, inspectors trained to be utterly ruthless. Ultimately you need some kind of inspection regime but it needs to be fit for purpose.

It is not difficult to get rid of teachers at all. Forget poor performers, good teachers are being got rid of or forced out for poor reasons time and time again. I’ve represent tons of teachers, the under performers are easy to spot, but time and time again, it’s good teachers that are being forced out. In my last year as a caseworker, over 80% of my caseload was teachers over 50, of those roughly three quarters were women. The vast majority were teachers with a a PM record of good or outstanding teaching.

 

[droodzilla]

There is no way Corbyn can survive this....

It's certainly a big loss. The 2017 Labour manifesto was a game changer and Fisher deserves a lot of the credit. However...

The Guardian website predictably spins the story (originally from The Sunday Times) as negatively as possible. The BBC website gives a somewhat more rounded picture:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49785014

With stories like this I want to see the original source, in full, with an explanation of the context. Basic journalism, but it's a test the Guardian routinely fails these days.

Anyway, Andrew Fisher still seems pretty cool with Corbyn: https://twitter.com/FisherAndrew79

For example, the claim in the Guardian/Sunday Times story that Fisher "apparently claimed that the highest ranks of the party were engaged in 'class war'" is a bit odd, given this Fisher tweet from just 11 hours ago: https://twitter.com/FisherAndrew79/status/1175653997929213952.

My advice: treat the story with a big pinch of salt until Fisher confirms or clarifies.

 

[Philim]

There is no way Corbyn can survive this....

Of course he can.
No matter what comes up be it anti Semitism, incompetent leadership, cleansing of moderate MPs, brexit support - his supporters will just trot(sky) out the usual reasons why it is everyone else's fault. They have grip on the party and as I have expected for a number of years the party will eventually split.
Personally given the ratings I am quite happy for him to carry on.

 

[Tony L]

The Guardian website predictably spins the story (originally from The Sunday Times) as negatively as possible.

Someone on Facebook posted a screen-scrape of the Times article and that was a lot worse (from Labour’s perspective) also suggesting the party is about to be hit with the independent anti-Semitism enquiry to an extent resignations are likely. It just appeared on my timeline so I have nothing to quote here as it will be behind a paywall. I’ve no idea how credible the report.