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Brexit: give me a positive effect (2023 ‘Epic Fail’ box set edition)

SteveS1 said:
"Sovereignty" is ET's attempt to put a more high minded sounding veneer on UK national exceptionalism. In the absence of any real benefits of Brexit you can hardly blame him for sticking to something that, although noble sounding, is utterly without tangible benefit.

The UK never lost sovereignty, any more than France or Germany have. This is disingenuous at best. When they complain that it's profoundly undemocratic it's because they think the UK should be running things. Hence the constant deliberate conflation during our membership of having "a" say within the EU, with having "the" say. Such concerns are of course the preserve well insulated comfortably off and encouraged by those driving Brexit. By the drivers, I mean the extremists behind Brexit whose goal is a low regulation and standards economy with, more importantly, zero scrutiny for the non-dom media owners and super-rich.

Part of their success was to harness a high degree of immigrant blaming for UK infrastructure under investment. To this end, the significant levels of xenophobia and outright racism in the UK tabloid press was ramped up and driven hard by their non-dom owners. The audience, as in any country facing economic problems is always receptive to it being the fault of foreigners, rather than people they elected.

The biggest triumph though was simply persuading enough people that their interests were somehow aligned with the wealthy and that warnings of damage to their personal economic prospects and standard of living were exaggerated. That last one is exposed and will continue to be exposed. Any future choices will be made knowing this reality, rather than off the back of the lethal cocktail of blaming others and hubristic, groundless boosterism. It will be tragic for future generations if this absurd act of self harm is not significantly walked back sooner rather than later. I found this interesting.

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Sounds rather like he is looking for a Swiss style arrangement which I thought the EU said would be off the table.
 
eternumviti said:
The first benefit to the populace is that it has been re-enfranchised. What stems from that - the policies of future successive elected governments, will decide the benefits - and the drawbacks - of Brexit.
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What has so far stemmed from the reclamation of the sovereignty we never lost hasn't been exactly positive though, has it?

Just ask surfers against sewage for starters. Then we could look at the mass crustacean die-off that's happening on the north east coast, mysteriously near the dredging preparations for the Tyneside freeport.
A freeport incidentally that we could have had whilst in the EU, and in fact similar to multiple other freeports that were previously operated whilst we were in the EU, which the government closed down on the evidence that they brought no benefits to the local areas, only corruption, money laundering and tax fraud.

This is what I find so stupid and short-sighted - what was actually wrong with the EU laws and regs (which we agreed to) in the first place? Apart from that (for the mindlessly xenophobic) some of them might have been originated in other countries?
Now that we can change things ( i.e. deregulate, as far as the tories are concerned) this is only going to bring negatives for the citizens of the UK. The end result of reclaiming control has been so far and will continue to be utterly pointless, which was all so sadly predictable.
What is wrong with REACH for example, and how is it a benefit to change the rules for the UK, considering that we import and export chemicals and finished products that will then be subject to both REACH and any additional UK standards? This is adding a unique and totally unnecessary additional restriction (and likely cost) for UK businesses, and this is only one sector of many that will be negatively impacted.

The impending 'review, replace or repeal' of thousands of pieces of retained EU law will end up exactly the same - reviewing and then retaining laws unchanged, with a new 'UK law' rubber stamp, is a pointless waste of time and money. Replacing EU laws with different UK laws has so far also only led to negatives - waste water treatment and the permitted ongoing use of neonicotinoid pesticides being just two examples. The introduction of additional standards for the UK that will not be followed elsewhere is again pointless and costly, and has already been roundly rejected by the businesses that will be affected.
The true goal of the REUL bill that our brexit freedoms now permit will be the loss of standards and protections for thousands of products and industries, and millions of UK citizens. And no, I do not believe that people like Rish!, Raab, Braverman and Gove have the best interest of the general public at heart, and the idea that we will replace EU laws and standards with something that is BETTER for the UK is patently nonsense.
 
The latest spate of posts is just continuing 6 years of going around in circles. ‘English exceptionalism’, ‘xenophobia’, show me the benefit but ‘xyz’ doesn’t count. On and on and on...

Anyway, just to highlight this post from Steve.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
So let’s vote them out now, shall we?
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We can vote them out at the next GE. However, I’m not as confident as some that we will because there may be a significant number out there similar to some in this thread.

Ironically, some of the loudest whingers in this thread won’t do their bit to get them out, they don’t really want them out, nor did they do their bit in 2017 or even in 2019 when a second referendum was offered by Labour, a ‘soft-brexit’ was a chance or even binning brexit altogether was offered by the LibDems. They found a reason to vote for something else and will do again.

FPTP and all that, but you would think the LibDems would have achieved more than 3,696,419 votes given 16.8m voted to remain in the EU and promised to bin the whole thing. I have concluded this minority of the 16.8m will never accept the majority vote and will never stop whinging. When it comes to the crunch though, they will continue to fail to do the obvious, which is vote to remove the tories for the third time.
 
They stripped to their vests and they gorritdun,

kdrGgiZ.jpg
 
Brian said:
The latest spate of posts is just continuing 6 years of going around in circles. ‘English exceptionalism’, ‘xenophobia’, show me the benefit but ‘xyz’ doesn’t count. On and on and on...
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Is there a better characterisation of the Leave campaign and vote, of Brexit?

Maybe you should add stubbornness or unwillingness to accept the facts...


 
Brian said:
FPTP and all that, but you would think the LibDems would have achieved more than 3,696,419 votes given 16.8m voted to remain in the EU and promised to bin the whole thing. I have concluded this minority of the 16.8m will never accept the majority vote and will never stop whinging. When it comes to the crunch though, they will continue to fail to do the obvious, which is vote to remove the tories for the third time.
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Many Englanders are conservative at heart and mind, and profoundly nationalist, even those who vote Labour. This is easily demonstrated by the great Corbyn landslide...
 
tuga said:
Is there a better characterisation of the Leave campaign and vote, of Brexit?

Maybe you should add stubbornness or unwillingness to accept the facts...


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I’m not adding anything, I know little of the leave campaign so I don’t know how to characterise it. I’ll leave that to experts on ‘Englanders’ such as yourself.

tuga said:
Many Englanders are conservative at heart and mind, and profoundly nationalist, even those who vote Labour. This is easily demonstrated by the great Corbyn landslide...
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Is that so? I don’t like nationalism, where do you suggest I move?
 
Brian said:
I’m not adding anything, I know little of the leave campaign so I don’t know how to characterise it. I’ll leave that to experts on ‘Englanders’ such as yourself.


Is that so? I don’t like nationalism, where do you suggest I move?
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PFM?
 
TheDecameron said:
Has the amount of defecation by lorry drivers on the verges of Kent dropped due to the fall in trade?
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Ah, the shit fascination again. Tell me, has the SNP included border ‘facilities’ in its break up the UK plan?

What do you think will happen with the majority of exports from Scotland that go to the UK (£52bn worth) when they get held at the new border? A new border for which you don’t have a plan to put in place, nor the ability to properly implement? It looks startlingly like it could lead to great piles of your substance of fascination by the roadside not far south of Edinburgh. Or maybe you are ok with it because it will be just south of Glasgow. Maybe you’re hoping the profoundly nationalist, stubborn Englanders will make it easy for you and won’t apply The Rules, similar to how the EU applies The Rules? £52bn out of £87bn will be a hell of a backlog waiting to be processed, something is sure to pile up. Have you learned anything from the Brexit epic fail?

Export statistics Scotland 2019 ( Scottish govt doc )
 
eternumviti said:
I agree with most of your sentiments regarding the current administration. As Sir Rod says, they need to go.
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Yes, the current government is terrible. The administrations shaped and led by Truss and Bozo in particular are the two worst I can recall.

Given that every brexit 'freedom' so far has led to a negative for the UK citizenry or businesses, and that this looks set to continue with the REUL bill and any other forthcoming legislation for the next c. 2 years, could you perhaps clarify what the positives of such deregulation are? Real world examples would be good, not paper sovereignty arguments again.
 
Graham B said:
Yes, the current government is terrible. The administrations shaped and led by Truss and Bozo in particular are the two worst I can recall.

Given that every brexit 'freedom' so far has led to a negative for the UK citizenry or businesses, and that this looks set to continue with the REUL bill and any other forthcoming legislation for the next c. 2 years, could you perhaps clarify what the positives of such deregulation are? Real world examples would be good, not paper sovereignty arguments again.
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Interesting interrogative style you have there. Where did you learn it? Starts off quite warm & cuddly, then gets nasty. Do I get the lamp turned onto my face now?

I do get why you're bored of this debate, but not so sure why you're anyway with persisting with it. Whatever, we have a bit of a problem, as you've obviously not taken a blind bit of notice of anything that I've written. Had you done so, you would be out taking a walk, or listening to some nice music.

I've set my case out a thousand times. That problem that we have lies in the clear and obvious fact that you don't recognise my case as having any validity, as notions such as 'democracy', 'sovereignty' and national borders have no meaning to you. That's fine, but as I said upstream, we'll have to agree to differ.

Is this where the waterboarding starts?
 
Not bored so much as sick and tired of all the very public dishonesty, deflection and lies in the face of the overwhelming evidence. Sincere apologies though, I really don't mean to come across as nasty or personal, it's just the frustration already laid out I think.

Democracy in the case of the hard brexit we're enduring is a pretty precarious argument I feel. Considering the narrow vote margin mainly, but also the well funded and targeted campaigns of bad faith misinformation, which have to date been covered up by the government in their continuing dishonesty.
I do think the argument that the regained sovereignty (that we never lost) is somehow going to be good and positive for anyone in the UK (apart from wealthy tax avoiders) is wrong, based on the evidence of what has happened and what is planned.

Nah, you're excused the waterboarding, neither of us is going to persuade the other, and what has happened has happened. Re-hashing it isn't going to do anyone any good from our positions of non-influence, unless you happen to be selling blood-pressure meds as well as wine? Difference agreed.
 
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