sean99
pfm Member
Yes, but by voting for Brexit you took power away from the (mildly corrupted) EU and handed it to the right wing of the Tory party (corrupt to their very core).
Brexit: give me a positive effect (2023 ‘Epic Fail’ box set edition)
- Thread starter eternumviti
- Start date
Yes, but by voting for Brexit you took power away from the (mildly corrupted) EU and handed it to the right wing of the Tory party (corrupt to their very core).
tuga
Legal Alien
Truss' mini-budget alone cost the British economy some £30bn...
Nick_G
pfm Member
Neutralise and remove the growing influence of the far-right, which Brexit has catalysed. We all know where that ends up.
That's not an unreasonable thing to ask for in the 21st century. We really should be long past this shit by now.
Graham B
pfm Member
OK, but you didn't mention anything about the actual, tangible benefits of leaving - that's definitely something I would still like to know? Sovereignty on paper doesn't count.
Also on the support for rejoining - if that's the democratic wish of the majority, you'd be good with that?
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
I wasn’t talking about people voting to leave the EU.
richardg
Admonishtrator
Really no point in arguing who is more corrupt. We cannot be sure. But we should reduce our exposure to it. And to remove one layer of corruption at a time is better than all at the same time. Tories next.
tuga
Legal Alien
People seem happy with the trajectory...
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
If there is another referendum and the result is to rejoin, then clearly we rejoin.
A question. If there was another referendum on rejoining the EU, do you think a supermajority should be needed to rejoin? Obviously this should have been needed in 2016.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Do they? Common sense says some are happy and some are not happy.
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
Sure, but that doesn't answer my question.
I did. It never gets heard.
I like the way you decide what counts. It does rather invalidate the question.
Does this smack of the old EU method of keep on asking until you get the result you want?
Perhaps.
Would I be OK with it? Well, that would depend entirely on the EU we rejoined. If it were the same one, God no!
Would I accept it?
Of course.
Graham B
pfm Member
Torn on this, but I don’t think it matters. You could request a simple majority, as per the 2016 vote, but looking at the polls I think a supermajority for rejoin is eminently possible.
The simple fact is that the public have now seen and understood the real implications of leaving and recognise that it was a mistake.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
"Sovereignty" is ET's attempt to put a more high minded sounding veneer on UK national exceptionalism. In the absence of any real benefits of Brexit you can hardly blame him for sticking to something that, although noble sounding, is utterly without tangible benefit.
The UK never lost sovereignty, any more than France or Germany have. This is disingenuous at best. When they complain that it's profoundly undemocratic it's because they think the UK should be running things. Hence the constant deliberate conflation during our membership of having "a" say within the EU, with having "the" say. Such concerns are of course the preserve well insulated comfortably off and encouraged by those driving Brexit. By the drivers, I mean the extremists behind Brexit whose goal is a low regulation and standards economy with, more importantly, zero scrutiny for the non-dom media owners and super-rich.
Part of their success was to harness a high degree of immigrant blaming for UK infrastructure under investment. To this end, the significant levels of xenophobia and outright racism in the UK tabloid press was ramped up and driven hard by their non-dom owners. The audience, as in any country facing economic problems is always receptive to it being the fault of foreigners, rather than people they elected.
The biggest triumph though was simply persuading enough people that their interests were somehow aligned with the wealthy and that warnings of damage to their personal economic prospects and standard of living were exaggerated. That last one is exposed and will continue to be exposed. Any future choices will be made knowing this reality, rather than off the back of the lethal cocktail of blaming others and hubristic, groundless boosterism. It will be tragic for future generations if this absurd act of self harm is not significantly walked back sooner rather than later. I found this interesting.
tuga
Legal Alien
A developed rich nation is only so if public services are of a high standard.
The Brexit/Tory model is that of a third world country with low salaries and low wealth tax and as little state as possible, a low-income country that welcoming to rich people, regardless of their whereabouts or sources of income.
Top that with an undemocratic FPTP system, no written modern constitution or constitutional court to scrutinise the Gov. and you get a vassal state to the interests of big business that cares very little about the commoners.
How's that for sovereignty?
The Brexit/Tory model is that of a third world country with low salaries and low wealth tax and as little state as possible, a low-income country that welcoming to rich people, regardless of their whereabouts or sources of income.
Top that with an undemocratic FPTP system, no written modern constitution or constitutional court to scrutinise the Gov. and you get a vassal state to the interests of big business that cares very little about the commoners.
How's that for sovereignty?
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
Germany, France and Britain all lost sovereignty as EU members, Steve. Ironically, Germany theoretically retained more sovereignty than the others due to its Constitutional Court. Perhaps tuga's right, the UK should have had one. It may well have prevented the UK from signing up to the EU in 1993 in the first place.
richardg
Admonishtrator
It's so far from reality, I don't see why it is worth posting. For a start that ferry shoud look more like the Titanic. And what is Scotland's flag doing on it?I'm reminded of this old cartoon...
Graham B
pfm Member
No one ‘lost’ sovereignty, we chose to pool it in order to work together with shared standards.
That we never gave it away is evidenced by the fact we were free to leave the eu, and retrench it within our own borders.
Now that we have reclaimed the sovereignty we never lost, what have been the principal benefits for the populace in general?
tuga
Legal Alien
Here's the answer:
The benefits of Brexit: how the UK is taking advantage of leaving the EU
Details
This policy document sets out how the UK is capitalising on the benefits of Brexit and how the government will use its new freedoms to transform the UK into the best
regulated economy in the world.https://assets.publishing.service.g...ment_data/file/1054643/benefits-of-brexit.pdf
Conclusion
Two years ago, we started a whole new chapter for our country, our economy and our people. Whilst the Covid pandemic, our new scapegoat now that we're out of the EU, has necessarily occupied the work of government over much of this time, our work on seizing the opportunities of Brexit has progressed at pace.
Some of these opportunities have already materialised—in this document, we have set out a range of our achievements so far across a number of key policy areas, with a real impact on businesses and citizens. Looking ahead, we are setting out a clear agenda for changing how we regulate and drive our economy forward—including how we will reform our regulatory framework, rethink how some of our regulators operate and review retained EU law. This will give us the best platform to capitalise on our regulatory freedoms for the long term. We now have the freedom to be the best deregulated economy in the world and to make policy choices that are designed for the UK, bringing growth and opportunity across the nation, in all sectors of the economy, and enhancing our security and global partnerships. Reforms in science, data and technology by giving them less money which is now being channelled to 'our' friends and family; business and industry is leaving or closing down; infrastructure and levelling up was just an April fools joke; climate, the environment and agriculture føck it; and a Global Imperial Britain are testament to the significance and momentum of our post-Brexit reform agenda of reducing spending, truncating worker's rights and feeding our donors.
This is a hugely exciting time for our
businesses more competitive and 'our' people more prosperous and more secure for the few, not the many. The bolder we are and there's no one bolder than our Boris, the greater the gains will be for us all Torys and donors. And—as this document demonstrates —this is a government that possesses the ambition and determination the UK needs to succeed now and for many years to come.We will go further, faster and forward to achieve our vision for the UK in these areas, building on what we have already achieved, a poorer and divided country with richer Torys and an increasing number of right-wing fanatics.
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
The premise of your interrogation is based upon the expectation that I agree with you. I don't, not even the weasel worded bits. Especially the weasel-worded bits.
The first benefit to the populace is that it has been re-enfranchised. What stems from that - the policies of future successive elected governments, will decide the benefits - and the drawbacks - of Brexit.
Worth acknowledging, too, that the UK doesn't stand in isolation as to what might happen in the future, for policies within the EU, good and bad, will also naturally play their part.
I thought you were bored of this debate?