TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
The chilling factor is the durability of their vote. Look at Bolsonaro and Trump. People can be persuaded to vote against their own fundamental interests in exchange for fantasy of biblical proportions.
Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII
- Thread starter Seeker_UK
- Start date
palindrome
Thru a hedge, backwards and forwards.
Statler and Waldorf - alive and kicking. Or is one of them a Jimmy Savile lookalike hiding behind the Trump bro-sure?
John
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Yes, I agree.The chilling factor is the durability of their vote. Look at Bolsonaro and Trump. People can be persuaded to vote against their own fundamental interests in exchange for fantasy of biblical proportions.
The trouble with such people is, they don’t realise they are voting against their fundamental interests in exchange for a fantasy. They don’t listen to reason either.
farfromthesun
pfm Member
Well, no, that's not my response, and not sure why you'd automatically adopt that position. The point is that whilst there is great fanfare and a 3 part mini-series on Labour, there is nothing of the sort for the Tories. It's not balanced, and for those in society that require spoon feeding their information, they'll likely summarise that only Labour has a racism problem in their party.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
There is plenty on racism in the Tory Party, some of it from Al Jazeera, so your point is not valid. Even if it was valid, it is not reasonable. A bit like complaining when caught speeding that someone else was speeding too and they got away with it. The original sin remains valid.
farfromthesun
pfm Member
Of course it's valid. On another forum I occasionally visit - and believe me, they're not as informed a bunch of people as on here - this 3 part series is all the rage; "can't vote Labour! They're racist, look at those videos!" Yet you, I, and everyone else that doesn't require spoon feeding political information (even the basic stuff) know that the Tories are also racist. The point is that those "less informed" have only had the 3 part Labour series foist upon them, and nothing of the sort for the Tories. If the expectation is "this stuff is out there should they choose to look for it" then they will not, and as such, it is not balanced.
Seanm
pfm Member
I do get this, but a couple of things. First, the British media has completely ignored both the documentary and the Forde Report, and the very significant findings of both, so we don’t really need to worry about people being spoon-fed this stuff.
Secondly, the time to worry about people getting the wrong idea was in the years leading up to the 2019 election, when the media were running daily reports about Labour racism while steadfastly ignoring credible claims about racism in the Conservative Party.
Thirdly, those reports about Labour racism were in large part a smear campaign cooked up by the Labour right in order to torpedo their own party: in detailing that campaign the documentary is correcting the record on something of vital importance.
Finally, the people who orchestrated the campaign are now in charge of the party, are themselves racist, and are running the party in a way that contradicts basic liberal norms and values. Given that they'll shortly be in government it's important to get all that on record and out in the open, regardless of the underreporting of Conservative racism.
farfromthesun
pfm Member
Sure, and you kind of highlight the issue that I don't seem to be conveying very well. Your knowledge and understandings of the machinations within the party far exceeds mine; and I learn from such insights, and have done for years. But not everyone is on this forum! And in my opinion, it is those people that need to be reached so they can at least make an informed judgment on who they should be giving their vote too. If they're only getting one side of the story (Labour is racist!) then they're not being very well informed. I agree, it was more significant pre-2019 election.
Seanm
pfm Member
Sure, but the point is that they're *not* getting this side of the story: the story appeared on Al Jazeera, is available on Youtube if you search for it, but is not being reported in any mainstream outlet. If you want to find out about the racism of the current Labour Party you really have dig. Underreported as Conservative racism is, the racism of the current Labour Party is still *more* underreported. There is an omertà.
The danger for uninformed voters is not that they'll come to think Labour is more racist than the Conservatives, but that they think Labour is less of a hazard than it actually is. Right now the country needs more people to vote Labour at the next election than Tory. But what we also need is for people to cast that vote with no illusion, otherwise things are simply not going to get better.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
The idea that the “less informed” are informed by Al Jazeera is not very likely. The idea that there are people on here who do not know that the Tories are racist is likewise unlikely. They might vote Tory because they are realist, there might be a few who choose to turn a deaf ear to the racism, just as soon seem to be doing with Labour, but accusations of ignorance are wide of the mark.
Even less likely is that opinions are “foist” on them.
People do not have to click on the links.
What the Al Jazeera investigations do is provide information about the Labour Party. They have done other investigations into Islamaphobia. What I have seem seems very well researched, balanced, reasonable unbiased, and with regards to racism, easily cross referenced with other sources
You can look at the investigations, or not. You can draw conclusions, or not. If you do look, you will be hard pushed not to come to the conclusion that the Labour Party is racist and corrupt. That the Tory Party is too is a given.
If you wish to vote for any party knowing it is racist and corrupt on the grounds it they might be slightly less racist and corrupt than the Tories, that is up to you.
Seanm
pfm Member
Labour urges Suella Braverman to ramp up asylum seeker deportations
https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1577581252236005376?s=46&t=_XyCIlPGkoIHfzZn8RsEzg
https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1577581252236005376?s=46&t=_XyCIlPGkoIHfzZn8RsEzg
droodzilla
pfm Member
Let's not mince our words, this is evil:
https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1577356617154183183
But what does it say about the state of politics that, even with a commanding lead in every recent poll, this is the best the main party of opposition can come up with:
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1577314725389602828
At this point, Labour doesn't have to pander to far-right ghouls by demanding more deportations. Reeves is saying this because she really believes it.
Sadly, she is in the great tradition of the Labour Party pandering to racists (sorry, I mean "legitimate concerns"):
https://twitter.com/evansmithhist/status/1577548836062785537
In this context, it's worth remembering that just three members of the current Parliamentary Labour Party voted against the legislation that ushered in the hostile environment. Their names are Diane Abbott, John McDonnell, and Jeremy Corbyn.
https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1577356617154183183
But what does it say about the state of politics that, even with a commanding lead in every recent poll, this is the best the main party of opposition can come up with:
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1577314725389602828
At this point, Labour doesn't have to pander to far-right ghouls by demanding more deportations. Reeves is saying this because she really believes it.
Sadly, she is in the great tradition of the Labour Party pandering to racists (sorry, I mean "legitimate concerns"):
https://twitter.com/evansmithhist/status/1577548836062785537
In this context, it's worth remembering that just three members of the current Parliamentary Labour Party voted against the legislation that ushered in the hostile environment. Their names are Diane Abbott, John McDonnell, and Jeremy Corbyn.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Damn, second "great minds think alike" of the day!
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Politics of the mainstream in England is marching to a different drum now.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Who do you think is voting for any other party on the grounds that party is slightly less racist than the tories?
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Any chance you could summarise what it’s about?
What is evil?
What is Reeves saying this time that is causing angst?
Great tradition of Labour pandering to racists? Sorry if I’m wrong but I did think you and a couple of others here were staunch supporters of the Labour party until 2019.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Lisa Nandy on R4 talking about Labour’s fully costed, detailed spending plans. But beyond reversing a few of the Tory mini budget tax cuts, the windfall tax, and, er, growth, I can’t find anything more detailed. Where are these fully costed plans setting out the detail?
Nandy ruled out borrowing unless the OBR a declared an emergency, and could not confirm extra tax rises, so how will Labour fund any extra spending to fulfil it’s promises on the NHS, the environment and infrastructure?
Nandy ruled out borrowing unless the OBR a declared an emergency, and could not confirm extra tax rises, so how will Labour fund any extra spending to fulfil it’s promises on the NHS, the environment and infrastructure?