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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

Lisa Nandy on R4 talking about Labour’s fully costed, detailed spending plans. But beyond reversing a few of the Tory mini budget tax cuts and the windfall tax, I can’t find anything more detailed. Where are these fully costed plans setting out the detail?

Nandy ruled out borrowing unless the OBR a declared an emergency, and could not confirm extra tax rises, so how will Labour fund any extra spending to fulfil it’s promises on the NHS, the environment and infrastructure?
Who the hell cares?

Translate this from someone apparently opposed to the tories to the electorate at large and it’s undermining the chances of Labour removing the tories. Such people are doing the job of the tory propaganda machine for them. The tories must laugh at such people, they are Labour’s worst enemy when it comes down to it, just like the Labour right in 2019.

The tories are destroying the country. What matters is them not winning the next GE.
 
Lisa Nandy on R4 talking about Labour’s fully costed, detailed spending plans. But beyond reversing a few of the Tory mini budget tax cuts, the windfall tax, and, er, growth, I can’t find anything more detailed. Where are these fully costed plans setting out the detail?

Nandy ruled out borrowing unless the OBR a declared an emergency, and could not confirm extra tax rises, so how will Labour fund any extra spending to fulfil it’s promises on the NHS, the environment and infrastructure?
'Taxes don't fund public expenditure.'
 
^^^ True. But that is not what Lisa Nandy would say. So how, in Nandy's world, are these spending commitments to be paid for, if not through additional borrowing or taxes?
 
Starman (the man who stands for nothing at all) makes a fool of himself again - wait for a Labour Government while your kids freeze and starve, we'll fix it for you, honestly we will, this time, pretty please:

"Kier [sic] Starmer has repeatedly refused to back striking workers including those working for the NHS as the main nurses’ union prepares to ballot members on industrial action.

In a round of regional radio interviews the Labour leader said he understood why strikes were taking place but repeated his opposition to standing with workers on picket lines.

He also rejected renationalising the water industry, telling BBC Radio Oxford: “I’m not ideological; I’m a practical person.” And he repeatedly attacked the government’s approach of so-called trickle-down economics.

On BBC Radio Devon he was asked three times whether he would back the Royal College of Nurses, which is recommending its 300,000 members vote for strike action.

He said: “I completely understand why people are concerned and are considering industrial action. We’ve had wages stuck for many, many years because the economy hasn’t been working under this government. I don’t want the strikes to go ahead. My wife works in the NHS [and we give a tin of beans every week to the food bank, really we do] – the last thing that anybody who works in NHS wants is to go on strike.”"

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...r-repeatedly-refuses-to-back-striking-workers

In Place of Strife (which set the tone for defeat in 79). Unfortunately Labour in Goverment, both local and national, has a long and sordid history of attacking workers and putting the interests of profit ahead of the people who vote for the party.) Trickle down did I hear someone say?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Place_of_Strife
 
^^^ True. But that is not what Lisa Nandy would say. So how, in Nandy's world, are these spending commitments to be paid for, if not through additional borrowing or taxes?
Only tories care and will make a deal of it in order to undermine Labour and improve the chance of a tory GE win, but carry on...
 
^^^ True. But that is not what Lisa Nandy would say. So how, in Nandy's world, are these spending commitments to be paid for, if not through additional borrowing or taxes?
This is the question she dodged this morning, but as we get nearer an election, that question will return louder and more frequent.
 
Maybe Jacob Rees-Mogg can explain to her how these things can be 'netted off' when you're a government with a sovereign currency.
 
The obvious answer is "not by tax cuts for the already rich who hide their dosh in tax haven, not by wiping half a trillion off the stock market and taking actions that require £65bn to stop pension funds going down the toilet." I'm not convinced Nandy is the type to tackle the, er, problem.
 
This is the question she dodged this morning, but as we get nearer an election, that question will return louder and more frequent.
Labour's fiscal rules allow borrowing for capital investment. Nandy this morning was talking about current spending (day-to-day spending). She said (at 1:16:30 here) :'when we do borrow to pay for day-to-day spending we'll only do it when the OBR[...] says that there's a crisis.'

So, Labour will borrow for capital spending ('investment'). It may also borrow for current spending, but only when there is a crisis.
 
Labour's fiscal rules allow borrowing for capital investment. Nandy this morning was talking about current spending (day-to-day spending). She said (at 1:16:30 here) :'when we do borrow to pay for day-to-day spending we'll only do it when the OBR[...] says that there's a crisis.'

So, Labour will borrow for capital spending ('investment'). It may also borrow for current spending, but only when there is a crisis.
Yes. However, labour also commits to lowering the debt after 5 years and the debt as a proportion of GDP comes down every year. Which sounds much like Labour are in pie growing competition with the Tories!
 
I think people will expect Labour to deliver signicant improvements over 48 months or so. If not then I think we'll have serious problems with an emboldened far right. Starmer simply cannot afford to stick with Tory budget constraints after all this time, 2008 will be close to 20 years ago and we're the only G7 nation not to have recovered fully. We'll also have seen 15 or 16 years of Tory/Lib dem failure, so...
 
As has recently been mentioned on the Truss thread, GDP is a crap measure in almost any regard. So referencing it when considering borrowing is also a crap idea, and just compounds the crapness. So much better to bin GDP as a measure of the nation's 'successfulness' and use a different measure. Then assess borrowing against that.
 
^^^ True. But that is not what Lisa Nandy would say. So how, in Nandy's world, are these spending commitments to be paid for, if not through additional borrowing or taxes?

This is the question she dodged this morning, but as we get nearer an election, that question will return louder and more frequent.
Yes, no doubt.

Best leave it to the pro-Tory types though. No point in anyone supposed anti-tory undermining the chances of an election win for Labour. We know where such despicable behaviour leads...
 
We all want the Tories out Brian, some of us just want something far less authoritarian and more democratic than Labour. I really don’t want to see a Labour majority as nothing would change. We’ll not get electoral reform, they won’t back away from the Tories racist/fascist refugee strategy, they won’t stand by trade unions, they fear economic reform, they will repeal no oppressive Tory laws etc. They are continuity Tories. Starmer will just hold power until the Tories are ready to take over again. If Labour don’t get a majority they can be pushed in more democratic and socially liberal directions by the other progressives. This is by far the best outcome.
 
^^^ True. But that is not what Lisa Nandy would say. So how, in Nandy's world, are these spending commitments to be paid for, if not through additional borrowing or taxes?
As things stand, all that Nandy et al need to do is not be the Tories.
 
@Tony L Labour is not continuity tories at all. That’s your perspective from wanting more immediately, imo. It won’t happen. The first step is removing the tories from govt.

PS. I read your reply first in an email alert then I won a bet with myself when I checked in the thread. :D

By the way, there is no way Labour is as authoritarian as the tories.

Edit: If needed a coalition should be better than the tories, but other than the 1 seat Greens there is no party to enter into coalition with Labour.
 
As has recently been mentioned on the Truss thread, GDP is a crap measure in almost any regard. So referencing it when considering borrowing is also a crap idea, and just compounds the crapness. So much better to bin GDP as a measure of the nation's 'successfulness' and use a different measure. Then assess borrowing against that.
We discussed this very issue at our WEA Current Affairs class this afternoon. While we were all for scrapping GDP or its variants as a measure of the nations wealth, none of us could come up with an agreed alternative. I'm still thinking about it - any ideas?
 
We discussed this very issue at our WEA Current Affairs class this afternoon. While we were all for scrapping GDP or its variants as a measure of the nations wealth, none of us could come up with an agreed alternative. I'm still thinking about it - any ideas?
A decline in the number of people relying on food banks and needing to claim benefit in order just to live looks fine to me. And I don’t mean a reduction by them dying off...
 
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We discussed this very issue at our WEA Current Affairs class this afternoon. While we were all for scrapping GDP or its variants as a measure of the nations wealth, none of us could come up with an agreed alternative. I'm still thinking about it - any ideas?
Pollution and environmental damage should be accounted for negatively, for example charge McDonald’s for clearing litter and set that coast against GDP
 
We discussed this very issue at our WEA Current Affairs class this afternoon. While we were all for scrapping GDP or its variants as a measure of the nations wealth, none of us could come up with an agreed alternative. I'm still thinking about it - any ideas?
There's the capability approach, developed by Amartya Sen and Martha Naussbaum. That's a sort of wholesale, expansive alternative. The Women's Budget Group, for one, have drawn on it to suggest reforms to government accounting that would allow care and other contributions to social infrastructure to be acknowledged. Long quote, sorry, don't have the energy to summarise:

The benefits of spending on care are widely ignored, largely because it is seen as welfare spending
the long-term effects of which are rarely assessed, and a cost rather than an investment. National
accounting rules enshrine that bias, by counting expenditure on physical assets alone as investment
from the capital account, while all expenditure on care, even though it builds up human and social
capital, comes from the current account. These accounting rules follow the internationally agreed
System of National Accounts (SNA) and are consistent with the way GDP is calculated, by
counting as assets only what can be transferred to others, and thus excluding human or social
capital. It is the same problem that makes GDP such a poor measure of well-being; indeed, the
SNA handbook emphasises that GDP is not meant to be a measure of well-being.15
Capital account spending is thus entirely biased towards physical infrastructure, and current
account spending on care is less for also having to cover any investment spending on social
infrastructure. This matters in terms of public discourse, but when fiscal rules treat investment and
current account spending differently (as Labour’s proposed Fiscal Credibility rule does16) that bias
is enshrined in those rules.

To remove the bias against investment in social infrastructure, all investment should be evaluated
in the same terms. This will require developing new accounting methods to guide public policy.
Although the public are not necessarily particularly interested in accounting methods, it would be
important to explain why they are being adopted and to incorporate them, not the SNA
classification, in any revised Fiscal Credibility Rule.

If such a revised Fiscal Credibility Rule took the same form as the existing one and allowed
borrowing only to finance investment, then the timing of the resultant increase in capabilities
should be used to determine what counts as investment. Spending whose effect on capabilities is
expected to be in the future would count as investment coming from the capital account, while
spending to increase capabilities in the current period would come from the current account.17
Decisions about what investments to make should also be guided by capabilities. Both the benefits
and costs of any spending, and hence whether it is seen as a good investment, should be evaluated
by its effects on capabilities, counting what it does to improve future capabilities against how its
costs might reduce current capabilities. Thus, improved care services that increased only some
people’s future capabilities funded by taxes on people whose low incomes constrain their current
capabilities might be a bad investment. But one whose cost in terms of current capabilities were
smaller, perhaps because more equitably spread, or future capability gains greater or more widely
spread might be a good investment.

Such a capabilities-based measure would take time to be developed and find acceptance. In the
meantime, a cruder measure of investment in social infrastructure, evaluating effects on the public
finances, could be used in policy development and any fiscal rules. Thus, spending on a project
would be seen as a good investment if its future savings on public expenditure (suitably discounted)
outweighed its current costs. Implicit in such an evaluation would be some assumption about
future policy, because whether something is a good investment now depends on what future
society would be willing to pay for. Were policy both now and in the future to be guided by its
effects on capabilities, as argued above that it should be, then this approach would also capture
what is a good investment in capabilities terms.

From Susan Himmelweit, "Transforming Care", in New Thinking for the British Economy: https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/ebook/

From a time some of us thought we might get a government that would take this kind of thing seriously LOL.
 


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