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Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition) II

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Something far more representative of the support levels with thresholds necessary to avoid smallest tails wagging the dog. But frankly, straight PR would be an improvement on our version of FPTP. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to devise a system that does not distort the support level and still provides clear outcomes.

I broadly agree with that.

'You don't think the UK system is democratic. What would you prefer to see?'

EV There is no 'don't think' when a party gets 38% of the vote and 62% of those who bother to vote vote against that party for the 38% to get 100% of the power and the 62% to get nothing is a straight forward dictatorship. Perhaps more subtle than that in Belarus - the only other European country with a first past the post voting system - but that is what it is. The Labour party is not coming to the rescue though - they would prefer to get 38% of the vote and all the power. What is needed is Proportional Repesentation so at the end of the election the parties negotiate to form a Government which more people voted for than against.

Institutionally the EU is far from perfect but it is a lot more democratic than how the Westminster government is elected.

Nor that, apart from the EU twaddle.

My point was more about 'fellow travellers'. I'm afraid (Steve) that support for PR places you/me/us as 'fellow travellers' of one N.Farage.

Life's a bitch, and all that.

PS Just for the record (again) I'm not a fellow traveller of people who continue to support BJ's premiership.
 
Johnson and Brexit are inextricably linked- he lied his @rse off about economic benefits to industry, removing red tape, new money for the NHS and no border down the Irish Sea when his very own withdrawal agreement set..a border down the Irish Sea.
 
Johnson and Brexit are inextricably linked- he lied his @rse off about economic benefits to industry, removing red tape, new money for the NHS and no border down the Irish Sea when his very own withdrawal agreement set..a border down the Irish Sea.
To be fair 'industry' should have known better. And although many held an opposing position, so many didn't out of misguided self-interest. In a relationship like this it takes both a bare-faced liar and people willing to accept a bare-face lie.
 
The glory days when Team GB took on Europe and won.

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The quintessence of statecraft not to mention tailoring.
 
Johnson and Brexit are inextricably linked- he lied his @rse off about economic benefits to industry, removing red tape, new money for the NHS and no border down the Irish Sea when his very own withdrawal agreement set..a border down the Irish Sea.

Big Dog got big gob.
 
Overwhelmed by the cognitive dissonance?

I'm afraid that the only cognitive dissonance in town was displayed when the left voted to stay in the EU, and in every pro-EU argument that they've rolled out since.
 
Yesterday I read a looong article at France Inter about their investigation - actually by the same group that uncovered the Panama (Pandora?) and Paradise papers - into the dealings between Emmanual Macron (famed neoliberal chancer) when he was economy minister and Uber when their corrupt services were being closed down in France. He was pretty much working as a government lobbyist on their behalf. Tabling countless meetings with them where they demanded everything from him including altering the law in their favour or them picking and choosing exemptions for themselves.

Those hard-faced international capitalists even carried on a recruitment campaign for drivers the day after a taxi-driver riot and the banning of Uber services in question by the Paris police prefecture. The interior minister called them 'arrogant'. And they didn't stop there, still relying on their pal Macron. Unfortunately for Macron the journalists have uncovered all the friendly text messages and emails between Uber and their corrupt lobbyists and Macron himself. Reassuring them of things he can do. Even after the ministry of finance had sent agents to the head office to do a search. Where they hid behind the fact the company was registered in the Netherlands.

As yet there's been no response to the investigation by Chateau Macron.

https://www.radiofrance.fr/francein...acron-jouait-les-lobbyistes-pour-uber-3366428
 
I'm afraid that the only cognitive dissonance in town was displayed when the left voted to stay in the EU, and in every pro-EU argument that they've rolled out since.
Ah yes, we're so much more comfortable with fascism and government-by-fanatic.
 
I'm afraid that the only cognitive dissonance in town was displayed when the left voted to stay in the EU, and in every pro-EU argument that they've rolled out since.

EV, one of the reasons that I voted to remain was because I was very concerned that a leave vote would embolden and strengthen the far-right, not just because of the economic effects.

It doesn't look like those concerns were unfounded, does it?
 
Ah yes, we're so much more comfortable with fascism and government-by-fanatic.

Whilst I agree that Brexit always carried with it a high risk of opening the gates to a more extreme right-wing takeover of British politics, I think also that your reply neatly encapsulates the terrible degree of defeatism of the left. The Labour Party long ago cemented its support of the transnational neoliberal agenda by its incoherent support for EU membership, thereby alienating its core demos, which were the ones most left behind by neoliberalism, thus pushing them to support the great disruptor, Boris Johnson.

I suspect you sit on the more metropolitan side of the leftist spectrum, and that your interests are more aligned to the personal advantages of EU membership than to the needs of the blue-collar disenfranchised, but do you not think that instead of sitting here whining, your energies might be better spent in actual activism towards channeling those frustrations into an entity that better represents the traditional left than Labour is ever going to achieve in its current pathetic form.

TonyL's politics are completely incoherent in regard of the EU, but he is right about Labour. It is part of the problem.
 
Whilst I agree that Brexit always carried with it a high risk of opening the gates to a more extreme right-wing takeover of British politics, I think also that your reply neatly encapsulates the terrible degree of defeatism of the left. The Labour Party long ago cemented its support of the transnational neoliberal agenda by its incoherent support for EU membership, thereby alienating its core demos, which were the ones most left behind by neoliberalism, thus pushing them to support the great disruptor, Boris Johnson.
Whilst I generally agree with your post and analysis, it has to be said that the use of Brexit as a tool for emboldening and empowering the more extreme right is what made it unpalatable for me. Once it became clear that it would only lead to an exit into a right-wing monetarist hellhole, it lost any value it could have had. And this was visible quite early on because all the narrative (and those accepted by the majority of Brexit voters) pointed in that direction. That said the long build-up to it was indeed a New Labour failure (even if there are larger forces at play than just that party). It was only a matter of time before some demagogue came along to shape the narrative in their favour and sell it to disenfranchised, worried people.
 
Whilst I generally agree with your post and analysis, it has to be said that the use of Brexit as a tool for emboldening and empowering the more extreme right is what made it unpalatable for me. Once it became clear that it would only lead to an exit into a right-wing monetarist hellhole, it lost any value it could have had. And this was visible quite early on because all the narrative (and those accepted by the majority of Brexit voters) pointed in that direction. That said the long build-up to it was indeed a New Labour failure (even if there are larger forces at play than just that party). It was only a matter of time before some demagogue came along to shape the narrative in their favour and sell it to disenfranchised, worried people.

I accept that argument, indeed it is the one encapsulated in Varoufakis's support for Britain (and Greece) remaining in the EU. The debate then centres on whether we are better being part of a supranational neoliberal entity that offers no valid form of representative democracy, indeed is actively anti-democratic, or one which is confined within national borders and offers some degree of representative democracy, however imperfect.

I've suggested before that we are in the midst of a process of democratic evolution that has actually been triggered by Brexit itself, and which potentially offers the prospect of breaking the status-quo. I believe there is opportunity out there, but we desperately need a coherent opposition, one with the focus and drive, I would suggest, that has been displayed by the SNP. The disenfranchised of the red wall can be brought back. The implosion of Johnson is a huge opportunity.
 
I've suggested before that we are in the midst of a process of democratic evolution that has actually been triggered by Brexit itself, and which potentially offers the prospect of breaking the status-quo. I believe there is opportunity out there, but we desperately need a coherent opposition, one with the focus and drive, I would suggest, that has been displayed by the SNP. The disenfranchised of the red wall can be brought back. The implosion of Johnson is a huge opportunity.
I'm broadly in line with this. That it likely gets worse before it gets better and to carry on in that giant neoliberal project - which has no room for manoeuvre where it matters - is stagnation. The single currency model is and was a failure, from the start since it baked-in the monetarism. I'll insist though, that the UK as a member was actually free from that constraint; all the big members have always exceeded the deficit rule when they really needed to and the UK could even flout it more easily because they had no actual deficit rule they had to follow, only a 'recommendation'. The UK could have killed austerity at any time, therefore Brexit in that regard was a red herring.

So there actually was much more power and room for manoeuvre for the UK as a member, this is unquestionable. The problem was always: what is the future? The risk that some clown would take on the Euro as a currency or that it would become a requirement for every member - no opt-outs. So at some point there would have been a crisis anyway. And in general the EU needs to be radically reformed and its economic pig-headedness scaled back completely or broken. In fact it will end up breaking itself or resorting to more internal dictatorial behaviour to maintain it.
 
I like how ‘neoliberal’ has become the insult du jour. ‘Metropolitan’ is an old favourite of course.

It's not deployed as an insult, its a thing. One of its manifestations is the priority of capital over labour. It is a priority enshrined in ECJ case law. Another is austerity. If you are from the left, there is very little case for EU membership.
 
If you are from the left, there is very little case for EU membership.

There are economic arguments against the EU for sure, but when it comes to democratic accountability, freedom, human rights, civil liberties, employment law and a solid anti-fascist block vote it is a vastly safer place than say the UK with its minority elite rule and vile tabloid-driven right-wing popularist politics.
 
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