Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition) II

[Kirk]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-is-anything-but-done?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

"The latest YouGov poll has found that every region of the UK now believes Brexit was an error, with 55% of those questioned believing that Brexit has gone badly compared with 33% who say it has gone well."

"...such has been the lack of progress on such aims [autonomy, trade deals, deregulation Singapore style] that Jacob Rees-Mogg, the former Commons leader, felt forced during Johnson’s prolonged fight to stay in Downing Street to warn Tory MPs thinking of voting no confidence that Brexit might yet be thwarted. Perhaps more significantly, the lack of a Brexit dividend since 23 June 2016 has led others sympathetic to Brexit to reconsider whether the deals struck really are optimal. Tory MEP Dan Hannan mused recently that retaining membership of the single market may have been a better option."

“From a Brexiter point of view, the thing that should worry them is that this deal has not settled the argument in this country about what sort of relationship with Europe we want”

 

[stevec67]

I'm not sure whether 'evil' is necessarily the adjective I'd use, but then I've not personally been a victim of some of its shoddier behaviour, and there have been plenty who have. I certainly don't see the EU as the benign and benevolent entity that it likes to paint itself.

As to accountability in Westminster, we are not only in very early days, but it looks to me as if lack of accountability is being sharply addressed even as we sit here pontificating about it.



If that's referring to me, you're wildly off the mark.

Early days? We have had 6 bloody years, 2 GE s and 3 PMs the current incumbent is STILL saying that it's someone else's fault. Seriously, how bloody long do you want?

 

[stevec67]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-is-anything-but-done?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

"The latest YouGov poll has found that every region of the UK now believes Brexit was an error, with 55% of those questioned believing that Brexit has gone badly compared with 33% who say it has gone well."

"...such has been the lack of progress on such aims [autonomy, trade deals, deregulation Singapore style] that Jacob Rees-Mogg, the former Commons leader, felt forced during Johnson’s prolonged fight to stay in Downing Street to warn Tory MPs thinking of voting no confidence that Brexit might yet be thwarted. Perhaps more significantly, the lack of a Brexit dividend since 23 June 2016 has led others sympathetic to Brexit to reconsider whether the deals struck really are optimal. Tory MEP Dan Hannan mused recently that retaining membership of the single market may have been a better option."

“From a Brexiter point of view, the thing that should worry them is that this deal has not settled the argument in this country about what sort of relationship with Europe we want”

What a surprise. Well, I and 15 million others said "I told you so" .

 

[PsB]

50 years?

Where have I heard that number before?

It’s a convenient number, of course, because the people who voted for this disaster will all be dead by then.

 

[Le Baron]

It’s a convenient number, of course, because the people who voted for this disaster will all be dead by then.

Yes, true that. Like 50 years in a penal colony and the buggers will escape it anyway!

 

[eternumviti]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-is-anything-but-done?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

"The latest YouGov poll has found that every region of the UK now believes Brexit was an error, with 55% of those questioned believing that Brexit has gone badly compared with 33% who say it has gone well."

"...such has been the lack of progress on such aims [autonomy, trade deals, deregulation Singapore style] that Jacob Rees-Mogg, the former Commons leader, felt forced during Johnson’s prolonged fight to stay in Downing Street to warn Tory MPs thinking of voting no confidence that Brexit might yet be thwarted. Perhaps more significantly, the lack of a Brexit dividend since 23 June 2016 has led others sympathetic to Brexit to reconsider whether the deals struck really are optimal. Tory MEP Dan Hannan mused recently that retaining membership of the single market may have been a better option."

“From a Brexiter point of view, the thing that should worry them is that this deal has not settled the argument in this country about what sort of relationship with Europe we want”

Except it doesn't say that x% of people surveyed think that Brexit was an error. From what I can see it is a weekly tracker survey which asks the question 'do you think Brexit is going well', from which the Guardian Brussels correspondent has extrapolated that a majority of people think it was a error, and used that as the basis for an article in which he grinds his (and the Guardian's) standard anti-brexit axe.

I don't think that Brexit is going well either, but that doesn't mean that I think it was an error.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Which is like someone jumping off a cliff, saying on the way down 'I don't think this is going well, but that doesn't mean I think it was an error'.

 

[wacko]

Which is like someone jumping off a cliff, saying on the way down 'I don't think this is going well, but that doesn't mean I think it was an error'.

When the cliff is so high it takes 50 years to find a positive who cares ?
Meanwhile it is downhill all the way.

 

[SteveS1]

I don't think that Brexit is going well either, but that doesn't mean that I think it was an error.

Like you would ever admit that anyway, least of all to yourself. Are you enjoying all this democracy you care so much for? A few fringe activists, many of whom not even Tory appointing the UK PM.

 

[eternumviti]

As we are so often reminded, we don't have a Presidential system in the UK. The cons are appointing a new party leader, and as they form the government, that person will be PM, until the next GE.

Yes, in many ways I am. British democracy is a cranky old thing, but it is doing its thing.

 

[Kirk]

We were only reminded the other day by JRM as he defended Boris that we have a presidential system.

 

[Kirk]

Except it doesn't say that x% of people surveyed think that Brexit was an error. From what I can see it is a weekly tracker survey which asks the question 'do you think Brexit is going well', from which the Guardian Brussels correspondent has extrapolated that a majority of people think it was a error, and used that as the basis for an article in which he grinds his (and the Guardian's) standard anti-brexit axe.

I don't think that Brexit is going well either, but that doesn't mean that I think it was an error.

Was expecting this. How would you correct your non-error?

 

[ff1d1l]

I don't think that Brexit is going well either, but that doesn't mean that I think it was an error.

 

[SteveS1]

As we are so often reminded, we don't have a Presidential system in the UK. The cons are appointing a new party leader, and as they form the government, that person will be PM, until the next GE.

Yes, in many ways I am. British democracy is a cranky old thing, but it is doing its thing.

Very strange then, to hear your fellow travellers insisting that Boris has a democratic mandate and that his removal is treachery. British democracy is not a cranky old thing it's more undemocratic than the EU. It just happens to be undemocratic in a way that you don't object to.

 

[eternumviti]

Was expecting this. How would you correct your non-error?

Correct my 'non-error'. Honestly, you are such a card!

Diplomacy and statesmanship. I possess neither.

 

[eternumviti]

Ah, the old 'fellow-travellers' line, eh?

You don't think the UK system is democratic. What would you prefer to see?

 

[SteveS1]

Ah, the old 'fellow-travellers' line, eh?

You don't think the UK system is democratic. What would you prefer to see?

Something far more representative of the support levels with thresholds necessary to avoid smallest tails wagging the dog. But frankly, straight PR would be an improvement on our version of FPTP. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to devise a system that does not distort the support level and still provides clear outcomes.

 

[TheDecameron]

Something far more representative of the support levels with thresholds necessary to avoid smallest tails wagging the dog.

A country where a grifter like Arrrron Banks worked from behind by the Russian Embassy, bankrolls the party of Farage who in turn has his hand up the Conservative Prime Minister running scared from the white anti-Europe, anti-foreigner demographic

 

[Tony L]

“Johnson 'delivered' Brexit? Brexit has only been delivered in the sense that a flat-pack of furniture is delivered. It hasn’t been assembled yet because it won’t fit through the front door, several of the most important pieces are missing and the instructions are in Russian.”

Billy Bragg (Twitter).

 

[LecsonQuad]

'You don't think the UK system is democratic. What would you prefer to see?'

EV There is no 'don't think' when a party gets 38% of the vote and 62% of those who bother to vote vote against that party for the 38% to get 100% of the power and the 62% to get nothing is a straight forward dictatorship. Perhaps more subtle than that in Belarus - the only other European country with a first past the post voting system - but that is what it is. The Labour party is not coming to the rescue though - they would prefer to get 38% of the vote and all the power. What is needed is Proportional Repesentation so at the end of the election the parties negotiate to form a Government which more people voted for than against.

Institutionally the EU is far from perfect but it is a lot more democratic than how the Westminster government is elected.