Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition)

[TheDecameron]

EU membership, English language, flexible labour market, very high 3rd level participation, skills alignment with needs of MNCs.

Ireland’s medical & pharmaceutical manufacturing export sector alone dwarfs the UK’s which is remarkable for a population only 7% the size of the U.K.
Adapting to Brexit, it is now bypassing Britain by shipping to the other EU26 states by direct sea routes and is now importing less in general from the U.K. than it used to, specifically owing to red tape/ customs friction.

The EU has been great for Ireland and demonstrates how small, progressive nations can benefit from membership. We look on enviously from Scotland and look forward to getting back.

 

[eternumviti]

Nonsense. You said that the poverty of S Italy relative to the North is the fault of the EU. I'm saying no, that's nonsense. That's in no way a deflection. You're the one deflecting.

I was referring very specifically to the effects of EU imposed austerity following the EZ crisis of a decade ago, as you know perfectly well.

You are deflecting. As you know perfectly well.

 

[eternumviti]

It's all gone a bit angry culture war here hasn't it - foreigners, elites, Brussels!, uncaring Remainers, rich people, smugness, EU Jedi mind tricks, etc. And we get a repeat of the false flag narrative that Remainers blindly following the wonderful Ursula and her team etc (I'm not happy that she can't speak Latin btw). You seem to constantly exaggerate the threat posed by the EU whatever you think it may be (Putin is similarly afflicted despite his 'warm words' on Ukraine's application). It's almost as if you think the EU is a threat to your very existence/survival. What is the actual objective threat here?

There's no threat at all if you support the concept of Europa, the EU's endgame. I don't.

And what are your thoughts on austerity, job losses, despair, suicides, insolvencies and the homeless in this country?

Appalling. Austerity was an EU-wide policy, and the UK was an EU member state.

And, fwiw, no, I don't have a high opinion of successive Conservative governments. It's conservative governments that got us into this mess in the first place.

 

[mansr]

There's no threat at all if you support the concept of Europa, the EU's endgame. I don't.

Where are you getting this secret inside knowledge regarding "EU's endgame" as you call it? You must have some good connections in high places.

 

[SteveS1]

You think joining the Euro is a good thing?

Nice tangent. Someone represented Greece as victims of the Euro, I merely pointed out they voted (heavily) to retain it.

 

[eternumviti]

Nice tangent. Someone represented Greece as victims of the Euro, I merely pointed out they voted (heavily) to retain it.

And I subsequently pointed out that they have no choice but to retain it. It doesn't make them any less victims of the thing.

 

[eternumviti]

Where are you getting this secret inside knowledge regarding "EU's endgame" as you call it? You must have some good connections in high places.

Secret? Its written through the treaties, like a stick of Brighton rock.

Ever. Closer. Union.

 

[ks.234]

Nice tangent. Someone represented Greece as victims of the Euro, I merely pointed out they voted (heavily) to retain it.

Not tangential at all. It was a direct question that went straight to the point of your post. What was the point of quoting that a majority of Greeks voted to retain the Euro if not to suggest it was a good thing?

 

[SteveS1]

Not tangential at all. It was a direct question that went straight to the point of your post. What was the point of quoting that a majority of Greeks voted to retain the Euro if not to suggest it was a good thing?

The Greeks obviously thought so and seem not to need the proxy sympathy for something they have retained and continue to use.

In terms of the wider point, the question for the UK is irrelevent of course - it doesn't seem to have done the similarly positioned nations much harm and it does simplify and reduce the cost of business and travel etc for them. As to whether it would have been good for the UK when the question arose, I have no idea without the ability to model the alternative scenarios - perhaps one for Matthew.

If the strength of major world currencies is an indicator that matters, it's hard to see that the pound's performance outside of the SM as being much cause for comfort.

 

[wiresandmore]

Ah, right. All good points.

But you don't credit any of the success of the Irish economy with the fact that those MNCs are actually in Ireland?

Yes, of course I do. Coming out of the 70’s, the economy was a laggard by European standards, heavily dependent on agriculture with one main export market - the UK. So an explicit strategic focus was to modernise and diversify and to target MNCs to get them to set up European bases here and it’s been hugely successful. It was initially fuelled by tax but other countries have played that card too. Instead, the reasons are now far more to do with what I said earlier - the huge supply of highly skilled graduates, the cultural affinity to the US, speaking English and the easy ability to get other EU nationals to come here for Digital Sales work etc. I have worked for many years for two of the largest tech employers here (both US) and have seen this first hand as new facilities are added to their Irish operations and why the Irish site is chosen over other locations

 

[wiresandmore]

And - to the broader theme - I don’t think the EU is perfect, far from it. I see the issues on how hard it is to get things done etc. But I’d still far rather be inside the world’s largest, open trading bloc than outside, and with all the freedom of movement and choices we enjoy. My son is about to go on his Erasmus (college/3rd level exchange year) as part of the EU scheme free of charge, it’s an amazing thing, now sadly not available to UK students for instance (afaik). We can retire and buy and live in another EU state very easily. We have full reciprocal healthcare etc etc. All of these swing the balance very positively for me.

 

[Colin L]

And - to the broader theme - I don’t think the EU is perfect, far from it. I see the issues on how hard it is to get things done etc. But I’d still far rather be inside the world’s largest, open trading bloc than outside, and with all the freedom of movement and choices we enjoy. My son is about to go on his Erasmus (college/3rd level exchange year) as part of the EU scheme free of charge, it’s an amazing thing, now sadly not available to UK students for instance (afaik). We can retire and buy and live in another EU state very easily. We have full reciprocal healthcare etc etc. All of these swing the balance very positively for me.

And losing all of these things the Tories proudly announced as a win for the British people. All for some false notion of "independence" whatever that is, in this highly integrated world.

 

[ks.234]

The Greeks obviously thought so and seem not to need the proxy sympathy for something they have retained and continue to use.

In terms of the wider point, the question for the UK is irrelevent of course - it doesn't seem to have done the similarly positioned nations much harm and it does simplify and reduce the cost of business and travel etc for them. As to whether it would have been good for the UK when the question arose, I have no idea without the ability to model the alternative scenarios - perhaps one for Matthew.

If the strength of major world currencies is an indicator that matters, it's hard to see that the pound's performance outside of the SM as being much cause for comfort.

But as has already been pointed out more than once, leaving the Euro, once tied in, would cause significant problems, so voting to stay with the Euro is pragmatic and not necessarily an endorsement of good.

The question for the UK, as you say, is irrelevant. But then by the same measure, so is this entire thread!

 

[stevec67]

I was referring very specifically to the effects of EU imposed austerity following the EZ crisis of a decade ago, as you know perfectly well.

You are deflecting. As you know perfectly well.

Am I hell deflecting. The point is perfectly clear, I've typed it out twice and I'm not doing it again. You are plain wrong, you know you are and you're trying bluster to cover your tracks. It's not working.

 

[eternumviti]

Steve, you're either delusional, or you didn't read what I wrote. What I said was very clear, and you deflected from it. I'm not saying it again.

 

[stevec67]

Appalling. Austerity was an EU-wide policy, and the UK was an EU member state.
.

More made up untruths. Where do you get it from?

 

[eternumviti]

Are you saying that austerity was not an EU-wide policy?

 

[Mystic Mac]

Th UK Government chose austerity..... gleefully. Let the bottom 40% of earners pay for the mistakes of the top 1%.

prof Mark Blyth’s take on some of it

 

[SteveS1]

And - to the broader theme - I don’t think the EU is perfect, far from it. I see the issues on how hard it is to get things done etc. But I’d still far rather be inside the world’s largest, open trading bloc than outside, and with all the freedom of movement and choices we enjoy. My son is about to go on his Erasmus (college/3rd level exchange year) as part of the EU scheme free of charge, it’s an amazing thing, now sadly not available to UK students for instance (afaik). We can retire and buy and live in another EU state very easily. We have full reciprocal healthcare etc etc. All of these swing the balance very positively for me.

Being part of something larger for common good offends the English sense of significance far more. The tediously truculent "do you know who we are" attitude is something I bet the EU doesn't miss.

 

[TheDecameron]

Being part of something larger for common good offends the English sense of significance far more. The tediously truculent "do you know who we are" attitude is something I bet the EU doesn't miss.

It’s a death spiral, not even a managed decline.