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Brexit: give me a positive effect... XV

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tones said:
An excellent and well-balanced article from The Atlantic on the problems caused by the existence of my native sod:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/11/uk-eu-northern-ireland/620716/

Personally, I regard the whole thing as the UK's fault, as, to anyone coming from Ireland, north or south, it was screamingly obvious that this would be a consequence of Brexit. However, given what's at stake (people's livelihoods and perhaps literally their lives), the EU could be somewhat more accommodating. However, to me, the UK comes across as a bit like Nazi Germany in Churchill's famous Czechoslovakia speech following "peace in our time":

£1 was demanded at the pistol’s point. When it was given, £2 were demanded at the pistol’s point. Finally, the dictator consented to take £1 17s. 6d. and the rest in promises of goodwill for the future.

...the utmost he [PM Neville Chamberlain] has been able to gain for Czechoslovakia in the matters which were in dispute has been that the German dictator, instead of snatching the victuals from the table, has been content to have them served to him course by course.

Not, of course, that I am comparing Johnson or Frost in any way to Hitler, but the technique seems to be the same - and it will ultimately fail. I can only hope that reason prevails on both sides.
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Nails it pretty much and yes, it’s a well balanced article, which is good to see.

A new UK govt able to agree changes that amount to a soft brexit is the only way forward I can see. I doubt there is much support in certain camps though.
 
Having voted Remain in 2016, I would not now vote to rejoin, purely because that would require us to join the Euro. I would, however, wholeheartedly support us joining the EEA (which, given our history and general cussedness in matters of the EU, is arguably where we should have been all along).
 
Brian said:
Nails it pretty much and yes, it’s a well balanced article, which is good to see.

A new UK govt able to agree changes that amount to a soft brexit is the only way forward I can see. I doubt there is much support in certain camps though.
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I can't see a Labour government getting elected on a campaign supporting renegotiation of Brexit deal to soft version. I could see the Tory party and Farage feasting on that.

Can't fathom this Tory government it is so devoid of any pragmatism it is beyond belief.

Such a long way to the next election and English voters in particular seem to have poor or altered state memories.

Also can't understand how the Liberal party is not able to come up with a sensible middle ground policy platform to get enough seats to hold the balance of power. Maybe it is just the FPTP that prevents this occurring.

Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Having voted Remain in 2016, I would not now vote to rejoin, purely because that would require us to join the Euro. I would, however, wholeheartedly support us joining the EEA (which, given our history and general cussedness in matters of the EU, is arguably where we should have been all along).
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If you feel like that then it will be the Tory party forever. Really in a sensible world sterling has to go as it is another legacy of the colonial past that has no place in a modern Europe.
 
tonerei said:
:D What's MMT? Dare I ask!
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'Modern Monetary Theory'. Seems to have some strong Keynsian elements, from what I glean from the thread. But the takehome message is that government spending doesn't derive from tax, but governments with their own sovereign currency essentially spend money into existence. It demolishes the lie that gave us austerity, but it does rather rely on the government having its own currency to play with (and that currency not being a basket case). Hence my view on joining the Euro.
 
You have to ask yourself, what game is that Boris & Frosty are playing and to who’s benefit? Exports from the Province to the Republic of Ireland are up 77% year on year, the majority of parties and the public there support the protocol as it stands.

“In an interview on BBC Radio Ulster it was put to the Brexit minister that "poll after poll" showed the public backed keeping the protocol as it was.
And it was pointed out that a majority of parties in the Northern Ireland assembly supported keeping the protocol – which the UK government has threatened to scrap.
The latest poll conducted for Queen’s University Belfast last month shows support for the protocol growing, with 52 per cent of respondents saying the post-Brexit arrangements are a “good thing” – up from 43 per cent in June”.
(The Independent)
 
ff1d1l said:
5a6885ad-7948-e8a3-7fc8-3f24802d0529.jpg
Most recent poll in the New European
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Interesting chart - shows a 5% swing from Leave to Remain - I would have expected it to be greater given its over five years since the referendum and given the machinations caused in Parliament combined with the domestic upheaval such as instability in NI, labour shortages etc.

I would conclude from this that a lot of British people's dislike of the EU is very deep rooted indeed and for them the disruptions are a price worth paying at least in the short term.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Having voted Remain in 2016, I would not now vote to rejoin, purely because that would require us to join the Euro. I would, however, wholeheartedly support us joining the EEA (which, given our history and general cussedness in matters of the EU, is arguably where we should have been all along).
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You bring up an interesting point albeit from the distant past in that there was never a great deal of enthusiasm for us adopting the Euro in the UK even amongst quite ardent supporters of the EU.

Surely the best way of capitalising on a single market is to increase its efficiency by using a single currency and get rid of all those horrible fluctuations and uncertainties for business and individuals.
 
Spraggons Den said:
Interesting chart - shows a 5% swing from Leave to Remain - I would have expected it to be greater given its over five years since the referendum and given the machinations caused in Parliament combined with the domestic upheaval such as instability in NI, labour shortages etc.

I would conclude from this that a lot of British people's dislike of the EU is very deep rooted indeed and for them the disruptions are a price worth paying at least in the short term.
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Five per cent is quite significant given the enormous cover provided by COVID. The main impacts have only really just begun and tend not to be immediately affecting the main Leave vote base themselves. There is also the fact that accepting that leaving might be more damaging is a tough thing to admit if you bought all the sunny Leave projections and the idea that the UK was somehow special in it's ability to stand outside.

The more interesting aspect is the effect of those who did not vote in 2016. Remain's vote was significantly affected by complacency with polls indicating it was not going to swing enough. There would be no such complacency a second time. Which is why Brexiteers, despite suggesting before the vote that a close result would mean the question was not settled, changed their minds immediately after and fought so hard to prevent a vote on the deal.
 
Spraggons Den said:
Interesting chart - shows a 5% swing from Leave to Remain - I would have expected it to be greater given its over five years since the referendum and given the machinations caused in Parliament combined with the domestic upheaval such as instability in NI, labour shortages etc.

I would conclude from this that a lot of British people's dislike of the EU is very deep rooted indeed and for them the disruptions are a price worth paying at least in the short term.
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Agree, I would think a lot of the dedicated +50yr Brexit voters are not for changing for a variety of reasons regardless of what unfolds. Labour shortages are reported across Europe so that is negated. Covid has prevented large numbers from travelling and it also camouflages things.

Watching the dismal performance from Bojo in parliament yesterday this Tory government are banjaxed. The corruption in terms of billions is so large and Boris's pathetic performance during prime ministers questions trying to implicate Starmer was disgraceful.
 
Another reason why I am surprised the swing to Remain is not greater is that nobody really knew at the time of the referendum what Leave meant so those in favour of a soft brexit may well have voted Leave in 2016 but they would not to do so now in light of the deal BJ negotiated.
 
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Yes couldn't agree more. This is what a lot of this thread was about. Pages and pages of it! Mandate at best was for a soft Brexit. That was ignored. But even though it was being ignored the public still bought a tough hard approach and gave Bojo his huge majority.

Reams of pages took the view that people just were fed up and wanted it done. But these polls show that there is still a dedicated rump nearly 50% who for myriad reasons primarily a hatred of all things Europe are still in for the long haul.
 
tonerei said:
Agree, I would think a lot of the dedicated +50yr Brexit voters are not for changing for a variety of reasons regardless of what unfolds. Labour shortages are reported across Europe so that is negated. Covid has prevented large numbers from travelling and it also camouflages things.

Watching the dismal performance from Bojo in parliament yesterday this Tory government are banjaxed. The corruption in terms of billions is so large and Boris's pathetic performance during prime ministers questions trying to implicate Starmer was disgraceful.
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But it is OK because 'his hair is funny' and 'He's a laugh, innit!'
 
A recent YouGov poll on “were we wrong to leave the EU?” shows 56/44 for “yes”. I suspect that there are many, as already mentioned up-thread, who feel we were wrong to leave but are not convinced we should rejoin. I think this question is a better measure of the swing in opinion on EU membership.
 
tonerei said:
Yes couldn't agree more. This is what a lot of this thread was about. Pages and pages of it! Mandate at best was for a soft Brexit. That was ignored. But even though it was being ignored the public still bought a tough hard approach and gave Bojo his huge majority.

Reams of pages took the view that people just were fed up and wanted it done. But these polls show that there is still a dedicated rump nearly 50% who for myriad reasons primarily a hatred of all things Europe are still in for the long haul.
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You're conflating Europe and the EU again.
 
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