Proportional Representation

[Colin L]

May I remind those stating otherwise that the Libs succeeded in making the Tory coalition partners have a referendum on voting reform in 2011.
The AV referendum was held and reform turned down by "the great british public".
I would have though that those in the thread that view referendum results as sacrosanct might have remembered this.

We have PR in the Scotland parliament and I'm sure that will continue when we are independent.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Someone will be along shortly to tell you that what was on offer was not proportional representation, and that therefore the 2011 referendum result is irrelevant.

 

[thebigfredc]

I know everything is clearer with hindsight but Labour coulda and maybe shoulda brought PR in after its '97 landslide GE win.

 

[Colin L]

Someone will be along shortly to tell you that what was on offer was not proportional representation, and that therefore the 2011 referendum result is irrelevant.

Not PR certainly, but the best that could be negotiated and approved by Parliament at the time.

 

[laughingboy]

I know everything is clearer with hindsight but Labour coulda and maybe shoulda brought PR in after its '97 landslide GE win.

And they did some of the groundwork.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenkins_Commission_(UK)

 

[gintonic]

I like it, proportional. I propose each person carries a number of votes proportional to their weight. 1 vote for every 25kg

 

[Joe Hutch]

Not PR certainly, but the best that could be negotiated and approved by Parliament at the time.

Nick Clegg had a strong hand, and played it about as badly as he could. I don't personally see him as the power-mad, unprincipled monster that some on here do, rather as someone who thought he was doing 'the right thing' and got played for a fool.

As Lord Melbourne once said:

'Nobody ever did anything very foolish except from some strong principle.'

 

[Woodface]

There would need to be a very strong campaign to explain what PR means. Our electorate has just fallen for ‘get Brexit done’ so is biased towards simple ‘solutions’.

Could something be done regarding votes per seat to potentially have a more uniform level of representation? Do we need as many MPs? Do we need more?

 

[gavreid]

May I remind those stating otherwise that the Libs succeeded in making the Tory coalition partners have a referendum on voting reform in 2011.
The AV referendum was held and reform turned down by "the great british public".
I would have though that those in the thread that view referendum results as sacrosanct might have remembered this.

We have PR in the Scotland parliament and I'm sure that will continue when we are independent.

AV was a ruse on the part of the LDs to strengthen the centre i.e themselves, arising from a shabby deal with the Tories. What is required is genuine PR, but bear in mind that this will open space for the far right too - it's not necessarily a panacea.

 

[droodzilla]

AV was a ruse on the part of the LDs to strengthen the centre i.e themselves, arising from a shabby deal with the Tories. What is required is genuine PR, but bear in mind that this will open space for the far right too - it's not necessarily a panacea.

Indeed. 70+ UKIP MPs in 2015, according to Stats for Lefties.

In principle, I think it's worth the risk and, in practice, I hope it will strengthen the ability of a genuine left of centre alternative to exert pressure on larger parties in return for coalition support.

And, who knows, in time, it might allow that same left of centre party to grow.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Indeed. 70+ UKIP MPs in 2015, according to Stats for Lefties.

In principle, I think it's worth the risk and, in practice, I hope it will strengthen the ability of a genuine left of centre alternative to exert pressure on larger parties in return for coalition support.

And, who knows, in time, it might allow that same left of centre party to grow.

Ah, but where is the centre, and what is left of it? (No pun intended, but quite a neat one anyway).

 

[gavreid]

Indeed. 70+ UKIP MPs in 2015, according to Stats for Lefties.

In principle, I think it's worth the risk and, in practice, I hope it will strengthen the ability of a genuine left of centre alternative to exert pressure on larger parties in return for coalition support.

And, who knows, in time, it might allow that same left of centre party to grow.

That's just like having 70 Tories I had the likes of the BNP in mind really - it would certainly give fascists a significant platform in the current climate and would probably push the Tories themselves even further to the right

 

[Arkless Electronics]

A socialist dictatorship is the way forward. We've been living in what is basically a neoliberal dictatorship for 45+ years under the delusion of democracy (Corbyn's near miss was the closest to ending this in my lifetime so far).
The far right must not be allowed to exist. Simple as that.

 

[i.j.russell]

I would like to see PR but I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime as there are too many vested interests who don’t want it. PR would better represent the real views of voters because they would be more likely to vote for smaller parties. The current system is broken beyond repair with rampant corruption and very little democracy.

 

[ff1d1l]

Be careful what you wish for. Taking Italy as an example and consequently they have had far too many elections over the last 60 years or so and look at the state of their "government".

I'd swap.

 

[narabdela]

Be careful what you wish for. Taking Italy as an example and consequently they have had far too many elections over the last 60 years or so and look at the state of their "government".

Er...have you looked at the state of our "government"?

 

[clifftaylor]

A socialist dictatorship is the way forward.

Can you define / describe a Socialist dictatorship?? I'd prefer not to live under any kind of dictatorship if poss.

 

[Tony L]

A socialist dictatorship is the way forward.

LOL. You’d hate it. In fact you’d rapidly end up in some gulag somewhere as you’d refuse to do the sort of work you’d be assigned by the state for your skillset. There would be no swanning around picking and choosing what jobs to take, you’d be working 9-10 hours a day on a line doing the shitty wiring in the budget ‘people’s amplifier’ equivalent of a Trabant! You’d be starting at 7:30 in the morning too.

 

[Brian]

The same thing was said about things like universal suffrage and the secret ballot.

Secret ballots. Now there’s a thing.

Someone will be along shortly to tell you that what was on offer was not proportional representation, and that therefore the 2011 referendum result is irrelevant.

Nah. Almost everyone taking part in the thread knows there was no referendum in 2011 on PR, those that haven’t remembered this need to get educated about it.

 

[PaulMB]

In my view, the moral case for PR is inescapable. I doubt that any practical issues to do with its implementation and consequences are insuperable.

As said, see Italy and 60-odd coalition governments in 70-odd years. Or see Israel, takes them months to hammer out a coalition after each election. I don't think the UK would miraculously be cleverer, unless in so far as it modified PR in the direction of FPTP. The "moral" aspect is neither here nor there if the electoral system does not produce an efficient government that can actually act. Still, it would be interesting to try for a few years and see what happens.