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Proportional Representation

Discussion in 'off topic' started by droodzilla, Jun 27, 2020.

  1. thebigfredc

    thebigfredc pfm Member

    Ice cream, coffee, beaches, history, art, barbers too
     
  2. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I view Israel as totally atypical. It was created as a religious state/refuge after a horrific genocide in the middle of last century, it exists in a location surrounded by religious dictatorships, most of which want its destruction (because religion). There are also considerable outside pressures at play e.g. the involvement of the US Christian fundamentalism/anti-Islam Republican right. It just isn’t the same thing as say Norway, Denmark or wherever. There are totally different attitudes, beliefs, fears and pressures at play, and unfortunately that has driven a hard-right government for decades now.
     
  3. Marchbanks

    Marchbanks Hat and Beard member

    Sorry, I knew I was treading on someone’s toes but couldn’t remember who. And I couldn’t find the pfm cartoon search facility.
     
    cutting42 likes this.
  4. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Outside of PR we need to move Parliament away from London, preferably Birmingham. I don’t want a fancy new building, MPs should be able to cope with a modern serviced office with decent conference facilities.

    This may lead to them feeling a bit less special & more in touch with the people they serve. It may also attract a different kind of applicant.
     
  5. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    A good case could be made for decentralising it entirely and carrying speeches, votes, questions etc electronically. Covid 19 has removed much of the embarrassingly archaic posh school kid baying and jeering from the HoC and that is has improved things hugely IMO. Why not go the whole hog and get MPs working from regional bases and actually behaving like adults? PR would over time render the ‘government’ and ‘opposition’ benches irrelevant anyway, so might as well just redesign the whole thing from the ground-up. An opportunity to get rid of all the historic pomp, ‘black rod’ and monarchy bullshit too. A truly representative democracy, a proper constitution, and a bill of rights would help drag this obsolete backward-looking country kicking and screaming into the modern age.
     
    Covkxw, Andrew L Weekes and Cheese like this.
  6. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr Staying alert

    Yes. The UK prides itself on being the father of modern democracy, so it is now time to bring up modern democracy v2.0
     
    Andrew L Weekes likes this.
  7. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    Yes, I totally degree with getting Parliament out of London and the use of electronic voting. One of the things that struck me watching the endless Brexit debates was how long voting on a series of amendments took. Literally an entire evening was taken up with voting that could have been done in half an hour. A complete joke.
     
  8. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Agree with all of that. The pomp & ceremony around the Palace of Westminster is inherently self harming.
     
  9. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr Staying alert

    If Parliament used the sort of electronic voting that is used for audience polling in those Saturday night TV talent shows, you could do it in seconds.
     
  10. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Absolutely. It just drags everything right back to the archaic class-warrior swamp from which both dinosaur parties emerged. The country needs to move forward, the overwhelming majority of us are neither landed gentry nor lumpen proletariat and politics rooted in those concepts is largely obsolete.

    We need political representation that is both relevant in a high-tech fully global marketplace and a world rapidly approaching a climate/environmental catastrophe. Everything we have at present just seems to tired, old and backward-facing. I don’t feel represented politically at all. FWIW I suspect internet-based micro-businesses are actually the main growth area in employment at present, there are countless people setting themselves up doing their own thing, so politics really needs to catch the hell up with us! Looking at the HoC/HoC just feels like a window into ancient history. It is tedious and embarrassing. Kill it now!
     
    thebigfredc likes this.
  11. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    I just want a sensible government which uses the tax system fairly & gives its citizens a fair opportunity. In return I would like to see people behave in a broadly collegiate way as opposed to the sheer self interest we have at the moment.

    It’s not too much to ask but is seemingly beyond us.

    I think the LP is capable of representing the likes of me but factionalism is its Achilles heel.
     
    thebigfredc and ff1d1l like this.
  12. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Amp design and repairs.

    All wonderful compared to Adolf Thatcher!
     
  13. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    he's a serial troll.
     
  14. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    The ‘beer & sandwiches’ description is something of a right wing trope.
     
    thebigfredc likes this.
  15. KrisW

    KrisW pfm Member

    The Italians know their political system has problems, but unlike the UK, it's not trying to deny there's a problem. The Italian electoral system was completely reformed on the late 1990s to prevent opportunistic forcing of general elections, the tax code has been simplified and shifted away from labour towards consumption over the same period, tax evasion is reducing albeit still high, and the country has been steadily improving in Transparency International's Corruption Index for the last two decades. Italy's big problems are a lack of trust in politicians as an entire class, a position that England is drifting towards..

    As Mussolini overthrew the elected government of Italy through a campaign of violence and intimidation, it wouldn't really have mattered how that government had been elected.

    Adolf Hitler won 37.2% of the vote in the first of two elections in 1933, and yet couldn't take control, forcing a second election. 37. 2% is a bigger share than the 36.9% David Cameron got in 2015 to become the unopposed leader of the UK.. So explain to me how PR caused the Third Reich again?
     
    Dave***t, Sue Pertwee-Tyr and ff1d1l like this.
  16. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    I'm surprised you are so positive about Italian reforms! Do you pay taxes in Italy? Have you ever been involved in a law suit? Do you not notice that almost every day a group of politicians/businessmen/wideboys is arrested for corruption involving state institutions?

    Regarding Mussolini, he was called to form a government as Prime minister by the King, after the "normal" political parties failed to put together a workable coalition.

    Hitler was also called in as Prime Minister by the president, Hindenburg.

    After which both established dictatorships.
     
  17. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused

    We’re all looking forward to that day here.
     
    Covkxw, Sue Pertwee-Tyr and ff1d1l like this.
  18. KrisW

    KrisW pfm Member

    @PaulMB that's an interesting retelling of how Mussolini came to power. Il Duce himself couldn't have spun it better.

    But any comment on why at least one UK Prime minister has been appointed on a vote-share less than Hitler achieved, and was unable to lead a government with? If your argument is that PR enabled Hitler, bad news: FPTP would have given him a majority in 1933.

    Regarding Italy in general, I have Italian friends (Toscana and Napoli, so not just one end), and I go by what they say about their own country. It's interesting how you see arrests for corruption while maintaining that corruption is rampant and unpunished. Time was, those guys never got near being arrested, and if you know recent Italian history, you know that.
     
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr likes this.
  19. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    A) Yes, FPTP might have helped Hitler in the way you say. On the other hand, it might have encouraged the democratic parties to form a united front, which with FPTP would have given them a majority.

    B) The arrests for corruption do not stop corruption being rampant. And thanks to the incredibly slow and complex legal system, itself sometimes corrupt, very few people ever actually go to prison. Ask your Italian friends. In Italy many forms of corruption are pervasive. They affect public contracts, appointments in the bureaucracy and an state-run companies, official appointments, university posts, posts in the health system. Down to "tipping" a local official to add a few square meters to a house. Or the local traffic policeman letting cars double-park outside a restaurant in exchange for the occasional meal with his family. Then, of course there are the various mafias, Mafia, Camorra, 'Ndrangheta, Sacra Corona Unita, all of whom have friends and sympathisers in local and national politics.
     
  20. KrisW

    KrisW pfm Member

    I'm not disputing that there's a still lot of corruption in Italian life. However, there's been a slow but steady upward trend in dealing with this corruption, and things are improving (international rankings show Italy improving steadily, if slowly, over the last decade). Yes, those things you say still happen, but it's less common than it was even 20 years ago, and unlike in the past you're seeing people face charges for corrupt activities.
     

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