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Proportional Representation

Discussion in 'off topic' started by droodzilla, Jun 27, 2020.

  1. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

  2. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    Good article, it describes my thoughts on PR very well.

    We need PR in order to move forward, with the current system we are screwed. It’s partly why I can’t forgive the LibDems for 2010. It was the best opportunity in years to change politics in the UK forever and they blew it by not insisting on a PR referendum.
     
    ks.234 and Snufkin like this.
  3. essgee

    essgee pfm Member

    Be careful what you wish for. Taking Italy as an example and consequently they have had far too many elections over the last 60 years or so and look at the state of their "government".
     
  4. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr Staying alert

    And Germany. Sheesh...
     
  5. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    In my view, the moral case for PR is inescapable. I doubt that any practical issues to do with its implementation and consequences are insuperable.
     
  6. Vinny

    Vinny pfm Member

    I suspect that is a sarcastic comment. If so, the German system is very, very far from simple PR.

    Lots of reasons for PR, lots of reasons not to have it. One hell of an assumption, but assume voting in the UK was unaffected by the system, then take a look at what actual PR would have meant for the UK over the past, say, 100 years.
     
  7. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    Anyway, I started the thread because I'm growing increasingly disillusioned with the Labour Party. However, under FPTP, it is the only viable alternative to Tory Hell, so I'm over a barrel. Likewise, the Labour Party itself, under FPTP, must remain a volatile coalition of disparate forces if it is to stand any chance of gaining power - this leads to all kinds of sub-optimal behaviour (to put it mildly). Same goes for the Conservative Party, but it seems to manage the issue more effectively (chiefly, in my view, because it values power over principle).

    So, I'd like to be able to vote for a party that more accurately represents my views and, under PR, that vote would not be wasted. I share Brian's frustration that the Lib-Dems blew their big chance to change the system in the coalition years, but the question now is, how do we get another go?

    Important caveat: I don't see PR as a panacea and want it to be part of a major overhaul of UK democracy including more meaningful devolution, elected second chamber and greater democratisation of other public institutions (e.g. the BBC).
     
  8. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    It’s never going to happen so why waste time on it?
     
  9. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    The same thing was said about things like universal suffrage and the secret ballot.
     
  10. Yomanze

    Yomanze pfm Member

    Fancy one party not having all the power & not passing what they like for 5yrs... proportional representation is democracy. First Past The Post, and the current situation in the UK, is more like an 'elected autocracy'.
     
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr and narabdela like this.
  11. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    Cheery soul aintcha?
     
  12. narabdela

    narabdela who?

    It's that sort of attitude that gets us precisely nowhere.

    The moral case, as stated by the OP, is inescapable. Not to even make the effort is inexcusable.
     
    sean99, Brian, Nick_G and 4 others like this.
  13. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I’ve been arguing for PR since before I was old enough to vote! Growing up in a strong Conservative seat and realising one has no democratic representation whatsoever and voting is just a total waste of time does that to a person.
     
  14. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Fair point, I am being something of a curmudgeon but I just don’t see it happening. Labour would have to get into power first, would they be willing to give the LDs a greater say?
     
  15. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    I don’t disagree with the moral case &, yes, I being rather negative but I just cannot see it happening. I would like to see more weight given to popular vote but I am not optimistic.
     
  16. Yomanze

    Yomanze pfm Member

    I'll add as well that I think the whip is a hideous thing in politics. "This is how you should vote", "tow the party line", "you're in trouble for voting against the whip" flies right against the idea of democracy, which should be about a freely cast vote, which is evenly considered.

    Combine FTFP with the whip, and we have what we have now... no chance of stopping things passing through without scrutiny and debate, the party being told how to vote, or else.
     
    Stuart Frazer, Brian and bob like this.
  17. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Yeah, sorry, the whole shitshow is grinding me down.
     
    droodzilla likes this.
  18. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Some kind of Lib/Lab coalition would be ideal, potentially curbing the worst excesses of either but I tend towards the centre left. We certainly need more representation from the Greens but I do fear some other elements getting a hold also.
     
  19. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    They wouldn't necessarily need to get into power; a hung Parliament might be enough (I can see that it won't happen with the Tory party having a large overall majority). Labour is unlikely to win a UK General Election on its own, given the collapse in its Scottish vote, so some form of PR that might elect a 'progressive alliance' of, for example, Labour, the SNP, the Lib Dems and Sinn Fein could be a 'least worst' outcome.

    The problem with the scenario, of course, is that two of those parties want their nations out of the UK, so might not want an arrangement that continues UK government. But, again, they might see that as less bad outcome than having the Tories in power indefinitely.

    Keir Starmer has made encouraging noises:

    https://www.labourcampaignforelectoralreform.org.uk

    “We’ve got to address the fact that millions of people vote in safe seats and they feel their voice doesn’t count. That’s got to be addressed by electoral reform. We will never get full participation in our electoral system until we do that at every level. I would consult the Party membership on electoral reform and include it within the constitutional convention that looks at wider democratic renewal--including abolishing the Lords and furthering devolution on the principles of federalism.”
     
    sean99, Stuart Frazer and droodzilla like this.
  20. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    You’ve hit the nail on the head, such a coalition could be very short lived. I really don’t like the idea of Labour being in with the Sinn Fein but let’s no go there eh;)
     

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