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Proportional Representation

Discussion in 'off topic' started by droodzilla, Jun 27, 2020.

  1. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused

    Hey!, what about the gnomes of Zurich?, the wombles and the clangers?. I bet George Soros is the soup dragon, you never see them photographed side by side coincidence? I think not.
  2. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    I'm afraid all this is out of date. The real enemy is Bill Gates, the philanthropic bastard, and Big Pharma.
  3. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Amp design and repairs.

    Like when Thatcher succeeded Callaghan I guess!
  4. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Amp design and repairs.

    Yep. Especially Big Pharma which is a huge enemy of the people.
  5. Marchbanks

    Marchbanks Hat and Beard member

    No! Not that...

    cutting42 likes this.
  6. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    So you think there is some innate "je ne sais quoi" in the British public and politicians that would make a system that works badly elsewhere work much better in the UK? PR would result in lots of little parties, squabbling for power, each able to make or break a coalition, just like everywhere else. And make it very difficult, if not impossible, to apply decisive policies because just one or two small parties, with maybe 3 or 4 percent of the vote, would block whatever does not suit their supporters. You mention British pragmatism; but surely this is what has produced the FPTP system. Which is brutal, decisive, and very pragmatic.
  7. Chops54

    Chops54 pfm Member

    You'd have a passive preamp though ;)
    Woodface likes this.
  8. KrisW

    KrisW pfm Member

    Italy, which actually operates under a hybrid PR/FPTP electoral system, has had fewer elections than the UK in the last 20 years.

    The Netherlands has one of the world's most proportional electoral systems. As a result, at any time there are about six or seven significant political parties in the Netherlands, and a number of smaller groups. All governments are coalitions, and that country is yet to fall apart...

    Coalition is the natural situation for a democratic government: flip flopping from strong left to strong right is not a good way of representing an electorate that's mostly in the middle ground.

    The "downside" of better representation overall is more MPs for the nastier parties at the fringes, but that representation also robs these groups of the persecution narratives that they thrive on when excluded from parliament.
    Brian, Woodface, bobovox and 2 others like this.
  9. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    True, but in almost all scenarios the dickhead extremes (fascist, communist etc) balance themselves out under the noise-floor and none get to impact the centre majority. Politics is a bell-curve and the real strength with PR is ideologues never gain outright control. There has to be a broad consensus for anything to get through. It can make things slow-moving and overly cautious, but that is infinitely preferable to the constant flip-flopping and undoing the mess of the last government we see here.
    Brian, bobovox, Colin L and 1 other person like this.
  10. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr Staying alert

    Yes. You might also argue people having a say is less important than ensuring the extremes can’t seize the levers of power. So democracy has two functions: one, to represent the interests of the majority of the population; and two, to ensure checks and balances in the system so the demagogues don’t get to work the system to the advantage of a privileged minority. They are two sides of the same coin, and they are not working for the UK at the moment.
  11. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    To repeat an earlier comment: PR is not, in itself, a pancea, but it's a start.

    A major overhaul of every aspect of our democracy is needed to get us out of the mess we're in.
    ff1d1l and Sue Pertwee-Tyr like this.
  12. Marchbanks

    Marchbanks Hat and Beard member

    No worries, we just need a referendum on it. That always goes well.
  13. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    That's not the point.
    The point is, at the moment our government is crap, theirs not so crap. Their government is not foisting a no deal brexit on a populace which has seen through it and no longer wants it, and they haven't killed 65k plus of their populace through a heady brew of malice, profiteering and incompetence.
    So yes, swapsies, I'll take Italian, please.
  14. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    And at the moment, not working for the benefit of the country.
  15. cutting42

    cutting42 Arrived at B4 Hacker Erg \o/

    Damn you, that's my line. Beaten to it grumble grumble.....
  16. thebigfredc

    thebigfredc pfm Member

    Erm.....beer and sandwiches at no.10, the winter of discontent and Dennis Healey going begging to the IMF.....at least we used to win the Eurovision Song Contest.
  17. thebigfredc

    thebigfredc pfm Member

    One of PRs characteristics that has always appealed to me is that it encourages a high turnout as every vote counts towards representation, unlike FPTP.
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr and droodzilla like this.
  18. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    I have to disagree. The extremes, the rabble rousers with simple, clear slogans that unfortunately appeal to many, draw many votes away from the moderate parties. They then have a say in what the coalition can and cannot do. In the end there is not a broad consensus, but at best an ineffectual compromise. An example: in Israel 85% of the population hates the religious parties, but since they can make or break a coalition, legislation that 85% of the population wants, but is not wanted by the religious minority, is never passed. Italy has a desperate need for radical reforms. It has the slowest legal system in the world, rampant corruption, a mind-numbingly complex bureacracy and tax system. But despite decades of talk, billions of words, nothing effective has ever been done. And let us not forget that it was PR that brought Hitler and Mussolini to power.
  19. thebigfredc

    thebigfredc pfm Member

    Like Bahrain perhaps or maybe not as it has thousands in jail without trial.

    A better example of a benign dictator is Salazar who masterminded the modernisation of Portugal from the 1930s to 1980 or so. He was so clever he even got them accepted as one of the founding states of the EU despite countries needing to be democracies.

    Or Ataturk who is still held with great affection by most Turkish people.
  20. thebigfredc

    thebigfredc pfm Member

    I much prefer their weather, cars, food, ski resorts, Venice to Yarmouth, Conte to Johnson but not their electoral system. According to wiki, they have had 61 governments in the 75 years following WW2.

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