Graham Audio LS5/9

[Mr Underhill]

Hi Mr U,

Are you sure you can't survive the prelude to R. Strauss' Also Sprach, or the 3rd mvt of Saint-Saens' Organ Symphony?

But any good classical music recording with some bowed double bass should do the trick. Jazz and rock bass notes are almost always plucked or strummed and that's easy.
The problem with smaller speakers is not just the size of the box or the diameter of the woofer but also the use of a higher tuning frequency on the bass-reflex. It makes for a mushy sound that's lacking in crispness and tonal descrimination. Bass-reflex (and TL) is a crutch...

R

Oh yes, although I am only a Man and not a Superman I can survive Also Sprach!

I was interested to get a feel for what you meant by sub-bass. Interestingly, for me at least, I have been forced to move away from my speakers of the last two years, Focal 1008be. I used the with a BK 400 sub very happily .....eventually. To help me out in the meanwhile a friend lent me a pair of Naim SBLs. The character of these speakers is infectious. The bass is without bloom and boom and the detail that is rendered is excellent. In terms of double bass the detail is there without overwhelming the mid-band; I have not only adjusted the sub but reduced its output to positive effect.

Back to normal programming.

A few years ago I spoke to Tim de Paravicini about his recommendations to work with amps, which I use, and the Grahams 5/9 was his first suggestion.

 

[tuga]

Having built 0.5q ported speakers, the transient response is extremely good. Any more so and I’d say they’d be edging over into the fatiguing to listen to category. Heard sealed speakers that aren’t as tight. I’d say implementation is more important than generalising by type. Of course there’s always trade offs whichever design is chosen

I agree that good implementation achieves the best performance for a given topology but one cannot ignore that each topology has an inherently different performance potential.
There's no way around it.

But sometimes it is better to use one of the crutches to avoid having extremely limited frequency extension or overly low sensitivity or high-excursion drivers or large cabinets, which is why you don't see many designers going for the sealed cabinet topology nowadays.

 

[PerF]

A few years ago I spoke to Tim de Paravicini about his recommendations to work with amps, which I use, and the Grahams 5/9 was his first suggestion.

He seem to use various Graham's at shows apart from some horrible large American ones last week in Munich

 

[ToTo Man]

...eventually, i found the shl5+ too strident in the treble for my taste. the treble: slightly too hot for me. same with the graham, too hot. the A26 with the 12 ohm resistor installed is smoother, you can even smooth it out even more with 15 ohm resistor. the ability to eq the tweeter via the resistor is so useful imo...

I've not yet had the privilege of hearing any Harbeth offerings, so can only go by other peoples' impressions, but those who find them not to taste usually complain of them being too polite with a soft top end, which would appear to contradict your experience. When you describe the treble as "slightly too hot", do you mean that the treble response is smooth but just too high in level compared to the bass in mids, or does the treble have peaks at certain frequencies?

 

[barryb]

Well, interesting @Ayya Khema mentions the SHL5 Plus as a bit hot. I too can corroborate this, subjectively. Perhaps it's the metal dome tweeter at play here - I don't know. I sometimes wonder if likely age demographic and presbycusis comes into it too (i.e. older ears may find them sufficiently detailed). I've read the 30.1 and 5/9's are both a little more relaxed here.

 

[tuga]

Well, interesting @Ayya Khema mentions the SHL5 Plus as a bit hot. I too can corroborate this, subjectively. Perhaps it's the metal dome tweeter at play here - I don't know. I sometimes wonder if likely age demographic and presbycusis comes into it too (i.e. older ears may find them sufficiently detailed). I've read the 30.1 and 5/9's are both a little more relaxed here.

I steer clear from hard cones and domes if possible. It's one of the reasons why I chose the LS3/6 over the SHL5=.

 

[Ayya Khema]

I've not yet had the privilege of hearing any Harbeth offerings, so can only go by other peoples' impressions, but those who find them not to taste usually complain of them being too polite with a soft top end, which would appear to contradict your experience. When you describe the treble as "slightly too hot", do you mean that the treble response is smooth but just too high in level compared to the bass in mids, or does the treble have peaks at certain frequencies?

shl5+ are ruler flat so its not peak related

i found the shl5+ too bright, fatiguing. not sure why cause the p3esr were less fatiguing for me

 

[ampedup]

Ayya, on your journey through British speakers, did you try any vintage Rogers, Spendor with 8" or larger drivers that you liked? Since these were the precursors to the Grahams, Harbeth, I thought they might have been in your listening room at one time.

 

[ToTo Man]

shl5+ are ruler flat so its not peak related

i found the shl5+ too bright, fatiguing. not sure why cause the p3esr were less fatiguing for me

I just searched Google Images for SHL5+ frequency response and Stereophile has measured them:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-super-hl5plus-loudspeaker-measurements

They look pretty wild up top, then again I've seen other Stereophile measured speakers show similar characteristics so I'm not sure how much trust I'd place in their measurements!

 

[Ayya Khema]

I just searched Google Images for SHL5+ frequency response and Stereophile has measured them:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-super-hl5plus-loudspeaker-measurements

They look pretty wild up top, then again I've seen other Stereophile measured speakers show similar characteristics so I'm not sure how much trust I'd place in their measurements!

no human can hear up to 21 khz. I dont think this is the fatiguing reason.. my measurements didnt show the 21 khz peak, but not sure my mic go up there

 

[Ayya Khema]

Ayya, on your journey through British speakers, did you try any vintage Rogers, Spendor with 8" or larger drivers that you liked? Since these were the precursors to the Grahams, Harbeth, I thought they might have been in your listening room at one time.

ive heard often BC1, l35a rogers. im very interested in the rogers ls35a but never heard them, nor the 90's spendor models.

 

[tuga]

I just searched Google Images for SHL5+ frequency response and Stereophile has measured them:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-super-hl5plus-loudspeaker-measurements

They look pretty wild up top, then again I've seen other Stereophile measured speakers show similar characteristics so I'm not sure how much trust I'd place in their measurements!

Two things to note. Stereophile's measurements are not on-axis but the average of several measurements taken over a wide listening area. And they're not anechoic.
The waterfall plot will give the on-axis response and that one is pretty good for the SHL5+. The wildness you see is above 20kHz and it's the metal dome break up resonance.

 

[tuga]

The M30.2 doesn't break up chaotically and the decay is much clearer overall, though I think that this is in part due to the SHLs two tweeter topology.

 

[scotty38]

@Ayya Khema Just in case you missed it could you tell me where you sourced the A26 kit please?

 

[Ayya Khema]

@Ayya Khema Just in case you missed it could you tell me where you sourced the A26 kit please?

madisound

 

[scotty38]

madisound

Thanks, are you in the US? If not what was the size of the customs sting to import them?

 

[Ayya Khema]

Thanks, are you in the US? If not what was the size of the customs sting to import them?

ive been lucky to get a like new pair of the madisound kit with the included cabs on ebay. the seller agreed to value the speakers at 100$ therefore i paid no canadian customs

 

[Ayya Khema]

if ur in the uk
id buy the drivers locally and build the cabs myself or ask someone to build the cabs for me
while ur at it i wouldnt make a tweeter offset, and would build a bigger cab

 

[scotty38]

Thanks for that I'll give it some thought, they certainly seem an interesting proposition....

 

[sunbeamgls]

i had the graham ls59 for about 8 month in my room and they do decent bass.

when i speak about hifi i mean comparing good driver vs good drivers. when it comes to bass its the one thing that is really not complex, a good 12” or 15” absolutely destroy a 8 inch for bass.

however, a 15 /12 inch needs a totally different speaker desing: ie implemented into a 3 way, or crossed to a horn for a 2 way and that brings a very different sound or set of compromise then a bbc 2 way. just integrating a 12/15 to a midrange around 300hz is often audible, or a horn have its own set of compromise in terms of coloration. i find that at about 8 inch, it can start to give satisfactory bass. never heard a 6,5 inch do bass without obvious serious limitations/coloration/distortion

Yes.
It is complex. I've heard some 8, 10, 12 and 15" drivers in speakers that were bad at bass (the LS5/9 is not in that list). Do I then say all of those driver sizes are bad at bass? No, because that would be a ridiculously bad extrapolation.
For anyone to come on here and say that "a driver of single parameter x is always going to be better than single parameter x-n" is just far too simplistic (whatever parameter they have chosen) and not at all helpful to those seeking good advice.