So

[Joe Hutch]

A familiar cry about linguistic evolution, which is true of many/most languages. However, it's the vocabulary which evolves to suit current environments. It's rarely the grammatical structure which changes and even then, it's usually by generational disuse.

If it changes, it changes. Some people still get their knickers in a twist over 'split infinitives' which were deemed 'wrong' by some 18th century grammarian who incorrectly thought that English was based on Latin. Many other 'rules' of grammar are similarly meaningless; why the fuss over not starting a sentence with a preposition, for example?

 

[gintonic]

If it changes, it changes. Some people still get their knickers in a twist over 'split infinitives' which were deemed 'wrong' by some 18th century grammarian who incorrectly thought that English was based on Latin. Many other 'rules' of grammar are similarly meaningless; why the fuss over not starting a sentence with a preposition, for example?

abso bloody lutely

 

[Mike Reed]

... Some people still get their knickers in a twist over 'split infinitives' which were deemed 'wrong' by some 18th century grammarian who incorrectly thought that English was based on Latin. Many other 'rules' of grammar are similarly meaningless; why the fuss over not starting a sentence with a preposition, for example?

More like the 19th and early 20th centuries, Joe. Rules for English and the formulation of dictionaries were in their infancy in the 18th century, I believe.

To me, most grammatical structures (rules ?) are pretty logical; even the 'its' and 'it's' deviation from the punctuation rules. Can you think of an example of any meaningless rules ? I'd really like to know.

Wasn't aware that you couldn't start a sentence with a preposition; new one on me. 'Through the hedge he hurtled....' is a perfectly respectable sentence starting with a preposition, so I'm not sure where you got that from.

 

[Mike Reed]

There are always exceptions; I can think of textbooks in my academic area that are updated annually and this includes one I am directly involved in as an author and another as editor. My boss and I were talking about the regular updates he has to make to the text book he authored, late last week.

Did I need to say English language textbooks ? Nothing else would be relevant to my post and the subject, surely. I don't know your academic area but does it involve the direct teaching of English?

 

[Nic Robinson]

Did I need to say English language textbooks ? Nothing else would be relevant to my post and the subject, surely. I don't know your academic area but does it involve the direct teaching of English?

Indeed. Haynes manuals are updated regularly, I believe. I doubt this is owing to the evolution (or possible decline) of English.

Of course, the thread is about a characteristic of spoken English, one that seems mainly to occur in broadcast interviews.

 

[Cav]

there are always exceptions I can think of textbooks in my academic area that are updated annually, this includes one I am directly involved as an author and another as editor. My boss and were talking about the regular updates he has to make to the text book he authored, late last week.

What is your academic area?

 

[gintonic]

What is your academic area?

Computer Science. I started work in the late 1980s - to early 90's designing multi-core processors and digital hardware for DACs and ADCs in applications I can't talk about , moved from there into SE, in particular writing optimising compilers.

These days I spend most of my time in Cyber security and Ethics.

 

[Mike Reed]

Of course, the thread is about a characteristic of spoken English, one that seems mainly to occur in broadcast interviews.

Good point, Nic, but oral language must be able to be written, surely? I'm finding the 'so' anomaly being used by (younger) people I know.

Computer Science. I started work in the late 1980s - to early 90's designing multi-core processors and digital hardware for DACs and ADCs in applications I can't talk about , moved from there into SE, in particular writing optimising compilers.

These days I spend most of my time in Cyber security and Ethics.

Respect from the digitally challenged !

 

[gintonic]

I'm finding the 'so' anomaly being used by (younger) people I know.

I am in the middle of marking about a dozen undergraduate degree dissertations, and whilst the students might not be to speak that well (they have to demo and present their practical work), they can write reasonably well and some are producing excellent narratives to accompany their practical work.

 

[Marchbanks]

‘So’ and ‘like’ and ‘innit’ and ‘enjoy’ et al aren’t so much signs of language evolving, they are more fashion statements.

 

[gintonic]

‘So’ and ‘like’ and ‘innit’ and ‘enjoy’ et al aren’t so much signs of language evolving, they are more fashion statements.

No, I genuinely believe they are a sign of the spoken form evolving. I suspect the evolution will be complete when they make the transition to the written form.

With weaker students I do from time to time see txt speak form part of the presentation of the written form.

 

[venton]

They are a little like viruses and people don't intentionally catch them. They tend to fade away eventually which some see as going out of fashion.
I'v been out of London for 20 years, but I've noticed an entirely new London accent developing. I find it quite amusing and affected, but I'm sure it's unintentional.

 

[Marchbanks]

No, I genuinely believe they are a sign of the spoken form evolving. I suspect the evolution will be complete when they make the transition to the written form.

I don’t believe this will happen. Fifty years ago my teachers in class would say ‘Right, if we differentiate with respect to x...’ or ‘OK, if you extend AB to AB primed...’ but I have never seen a written exam question that starts ‘Right, there are two congruent triangles...’

 

[gintonic]

I don’t believe this will happen. Fifty years ago my teachers in class would say ‘Right, if we differentiate with respect to x...’ or ‘OK, if you extend AB to AB primed...’ but I have never seen a written exam question that starts ‘Right, there are two congruent triangles...’

If have seen PhD theses where sentences are started like that, and use terms that are in the spoken colloquial vernacular.

unless you are immersed in this by working with it on a daily basis, you'll never experience it.

 

[Marchbanks]

So the evolution will only be complete for a tiny minority?

 

[gintonic]

So the evolution will only be complete for a tiny minority?

No it may enter more widely accepted spoken and written forms. it may take decades though.

If you are old then then you may well not be of the earth anymore when this happens.

I might be middle aged, but I have paid for a full body cryogenic freezing, so when I am revived in several centuries time, I will be able to see how far the evolution has come since my freezing.

 

[Aethelist]

Still struggling with the good thing here.

Like. "How are you?"

I'm good.

Your'e "good"?

Good at what?

 

[Marchbanks]

I might be middle aged, but I have paid for a full body cryogenic freezing, so when I am revived in several centuries time, I will be able to see how far the evolution has come since my freezing.

I will leave some money for you in an interest-bearing account to be collected on condition you can show my representatives an exam question starting ‘So, ...’ As I say, no sign of ‘Right’ or ‘OK’ yet, so personally I think the money is safe. Good luck with the culture shock!

 

[Swamp Thing]

I've been squashing my mouth to only let the small words out.

 

[gintonic]

I will leave some money for you in an interest-bearing account to be collected on condition you can show my representatives an exam question starting ‘So, ...’ As I say, no sign of ‘Right’ or ‘OK’ yet, so personally I think the money is safe. Good luck with the culture shock!

that is a win for me, I'll write a question in next year's Computing Ethics paper that starts "so"