This is getting silly

[Ciunas Audio]

John, yes, per previous suggestion I've now got the speakers/Vibe and Young on one "hydra", with the Sonos connected via optical and plugged into a socket on the old house ring. [edit] and the Sonos is not connected direct to the pre.

I'll also try some listening via the CDP which will require some shuffling of connections.

The idea is to get all devices, including the source devices with no ground potential between them. Tell me why you use optical on the Sonus - noise issues, perhaps?

Is it not safe to assume that a double wall socket provides the same surety of minimised ground issues? Or for that matter all the sockets on my separate ring main - fitted by a qualified electrician?

Yes, I think that is safe to assume. So if you test your Sonus Vs your CDP (now plugged into the same ring as the rest) do you hear any difference? I dont believe you heard any difference before in changing sources? Am I correct?

 

[Whaleblue]

John, up until now no differences between any digital sources. The varied listening will now continue for a couple of weeks...

 

[Whaleblue]

I vote C and maybe A ;-)

Hi Matt, how's the system?

 

[adamdea]

Actually, when I listen, many may be surprised to hear, I simply listen and enjoy the music.

No, but don't you simply sit back, listen to and enjoy your hifi, unconcerned by the thought that what you are hearing is actually music? Like normal people.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

I'm not sure what you are saying, Ian?
Are you saying that all your devices are plugged into the same extension block & there is no audible difference between any digital source you use - Sonus or CDP?

 

[Whaleblue]

Tell me why you use optical on the Sonus - noise issues, perhaps?

I'm told the SMPS in the Sonos is a potential issue, so isolating it via optical and plugging it into the old house circuit seemed logical. I can try other variations I guess.

 

[Whaleblue]

I'm not sure what you are saying, Ian?
Are you saying that all your devices are plugged into the same extension block & there is no audible difference between any digital source you use - Sonus or CDP?

John, you do remember this thread, right?!!! [assume smiley here]

 

[Ciunas Audio]

I'm told the SMPS in the Sonos is a potential issue, so isolating it via optical and plugging it into the old house circuit seemed logical. I can try other variations I guess.

No, I'm asking if you tried the PS experiment I suggested a while ago, of having all audio devices plugged into the same sockets to avoid ground potential? Then, when you change from CDP to Sonus do you hear a difference?

 

[Whaleblue]

No, I'm asking if you tried the PS experiment I suggested a while ago, of having all audio devices plugged into the same sockets to avoid ground potential? Then, when you change from CDP to Sonus do you hear a difference?

Given that we agree the new ring will provide a good common ground, yes. Having said that I've also used a hydra as described, but as it has only four leads I run out for some testing configs.

All digital sources in whatever combos sounded the same, hence the thread.

 

[Whaleblue]

And the Sonos being connected via optical means it can be plugged into the new ring but all that can do is add SMPS noise?

 

[Ciunas Audio]

Maybe you should try connecting the DAC to the hydra rather than having it on it's own socket - just as an experiment (there might be some funky wiring going on behind the wall?)

 

[Ciunas Audio]

And the Sonos being connected via optical means it can be plugged into the new ring but all that can do is add SMPS noise?

I also asked you did you ever use a non-optical cable to connect the Sonus to the DAC? Noise issues resulted?
Another question - given that you only have 4 outlets on the Hydra - are you plugging the CDP into this or somewhere else?

 

[S-Man]

Radine, I know you're only being friendly and helpful, and if I've not made it obvious I'll try to re-phrase...

1. I've spent a lot f money on the speakers, and if think my system sounds fantastic.
2. Others find they are noticing quite significant benefits to using better DACs and pre-amps compared to lesser ones. I don't find this.
3. I therefore come to the conclusion that one of the following holds true:

A. I (and others who have heard my system) are cloth eared.
B. Something about my setup (room, supports, leccy supply etc. etc.) is holding my sound back to a level where I'm stuck at the lowest common denominator.
C. My method of appraisal is wrong, and with long term relaxed listening the benefits of the better kit becomes apparent.
D. Other folk are in some way deluded. Expectation bias (or whatever) has messed with their heads and there is no actual difference between DACs/pre-amps.

State X == A. or D. are true. I can sell my Young DAC and TEAD Vibe and spend the money elsewhere.

State Y == B. or C. are true. Relax/fix the system issue, and enjoy better sounds.

I simply want to achieve state X or Y with enough personal certainty to make the correct sell/don't sell decision.

If your system sounds great then B and C must be fine and A seems unlikley.
Who cares about D?

IMO most modern DACs sound fundamentaly similar. I compared some very expensive kit and concluded that they were no better than a €60 Auidiophonics kit DAC. All the DACs had minor tonal differences and it's easy to change these perceived tonal differences on the kit DAC by changing PS and decoupling components. However my old R2R DAC equiped CDP sounds FUNDAMENTALY better than any of these modern DACs (despite its inferior measured THD and SNT etc).

The transport also make a big diifference. I have no idea how good/bad a Sonos is but my SB3 (and SB+ when I had it), CA840C, Philips 723 are all noticeably inferior to the CDP I use.

As for amplifiers - same result. I've built many 10s of power amps and most sound quite similar, especially if based on the Lin toplogy. It took me a while to realise that's because I re-used the same power supply and that this has a marked effect on the SQ.

 

[Whaleblue]

I also asked you did you ever use a non-optical cable to connect the Sonus to the DAC? Noise issues resulted?

I'll add that to the list of things to try, although I think it may have occurred I'm not certain.

 

[Steven Toy]

Do any of you actually listen without worrying/overthinking?

Listening for pleasure and listening to evaluate are completely different activities with the latter being something of a ball-ache. There is nothing about my system that grates apart from a few really bad recordings.

I haven't made any changes in a year now and the next change will be the MDAC2 simply because the upgraded MDAC that I have already has already half paid for it so I think, why not?

If an upgrade or change brings about a worthwhile improvement it enhances your listening pleasure when you are not in analysis mode. Trying to prove that a difference exists kind of barks up the wrong tree because a difference does not necessarily mean more enjoyment. Different for its own sake is pointless.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

Ian, you may have missed this question I inserted when I edited my post
"Another question - given that you only have 4 outlets on the Hydra - are you plugging the CDP into this or somewhere else?"

 

[Whaleblue]

If your system sounds great then B and C must be fine and A seems unlikley.
Who cares about D?

IMO most modern DACs sound fundamentaly similar. I compared some very expensive kit and concluded that they were no better than a €60 Auidiophonics kit DAC. All the DACs had minor tonal differences and it's easy to change these perceived tonal differences on the kit DAC by changing PS and decoupling components. However my old R2R DAC equiped CDP sounds MUCH better than any of these modern DACs (despite its inferior measured THD and SNT etc).

The transport also make a big diifference. I have no idea how good/bad a Sonos is but my SB3 (and SB+ when I had it), CA840C, Philips 723 are all noticeably inferior to the CDP I use.

As for amplifiers - same result. I've built many 10s of power amps and most sound quite similar, especially if based on the Lin toplogy. It took me a while to realise that's because I re-used the same power supply and that this has a marked effect on the SQ.

I care about X and Y and D is a part of that.

Of course another possibility is...

E. Although some bits of kit are inferior, and folk hear this in their systems, but the Sonos/Tag McLaren CDT20/Young DAC/Tag McLaren AV32 and Tom Evans Vibe are all superb bits of kit with minimal differences at their elevated level.

I think this unlikely.

FWIW I don't hear a difference in the Young whether powered by cheap SMPS or Avondale Linear PS.

 

[Whaleblue]

Ian, you may have missed this question I inserted when I edited my post
"Another question - given that you only have 4 outlets on the Hydra - are you plugging the CDP into this or somewhere else?"

Combo noted for testing, though I'm unsure how the four hydras can stretch to achieve this!

Note it's a CDT so needs the Young!

 

[Ciunas Audio]

FWIW I don't hear a difference in the Young whether powered by cheap SMPS or Avondale Linear PS.

As I said, I believe this suggests that you have ground noise issues!!
Please try the suggestions I have given - only takes a couple of mins

 

[clivem2]

Radine, I know you're only being friendly and helpful, and if I've not made it obvious I'll try to re-phrase...

1. I've spent a lot of money on the speakers, and I think my system sounds fantastic.
2. Others find they are noticing quite significant benefits to using better DACs and pre-amps compared to lesser ones. I don't find this.
3. I therefore come to the conclusion that one of the following holds true:

A. I (and others who have heard my system) are cloth eared.
B. Something about my setup (room, supports, leccy supply etc. etc.) is holding my sound back to a level where I'm stuck at the lowest common denominator.
C. My method of appraisal is wrong, and with long term relaxed listening the benefits of the better kit becomes apparent.
D. Other folk are in some way deluded. Expectation bias (or whatever) has messed with their heads and there is no actual difference between DACs/pre-amps.

State X == A. or D. are true. I can sell my Young DAC and TEAD Vibe and spend the money elsewhere.

State Y == B. or C. are true. Relax/fix the system issue, and enjoy better sounds.

I simply want to achieve state X or Y with enough personal certainty to make the correct sell/don't sell decision.

First off...if you are happy with the sound then don't mess with it.

If you are not then my guess is to do with the bass in your system. I could very easily be totally wrong!

You've found that level matching is very important when comparing kit and it is. I've found the bass levels too are very important. I realise you've recently tamed the bass in your room but I wonder if you became used to overblown bass and it's still a touch overblown. I find small amounts of too much bass masks a lot of subtlety in the mid-range. I run active bass with dsp and can control the bass very well. Just a little too much bass, just 1 or 2 db too much gives a fun sound but there is mid-range masking, which stops when the bass is set at the correct level. Do you know anyone who can measure you room, especially the bass? It's really hard to get right without measurements.