Ciunas Audio
Trade: Ciunas Audio
Of course but getting one amplifier to measure & sound like another isn't the same as what I said (- I'm sure you will now start the schoolboy debate you so decry).
This is getting silly
- Thread starter Whaleblue
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Of course but getting one amplifier to measure & sound like another isn't the same as what I said (- I'm sure you will now start the schoolboy debate you so decry).
radamel
Music Fiend
And what is this "known unbiased science"?
adamdea
You are not a sound quality evaluation device
Actually the link was to one post, but pretty much.
As Caroline Aherne famously asked Debbie McGee:
"So, what first attracted you to the millionaire Paul Daniels?"
Why could it be that many people like the sound of very distorted amps? It's just a mystery isn't it?
darrenyeats
pfm Member
Reminds me of "I just want to find a man who's handsome and a nice guy - is that too much to ask of a millionaire?"
adamdea
You are not a sound quality evaluation device
Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
As I said, what is audible can be measured but not necessarily vice-versa. When you want to enhance the listening experience you need to evaluate this under normal listening conditions. The subject of the test should not be the listener. ABX, especially the quick-fire switching variety always places the listener at the focus of the test.
The objectivist agenda looks for absolute proof. This is an obstacle in the way of real progress in terms of enhanced listening experience. With the abx dbt or measurist approach the rigour gets in the way of progress from an enjoyment perspective.
Risk assessment is absent in the more rigorous approach for it accepts zero risk. The risk of false negatives is deliberately unaccounted for with an objectivist agenda, hence Vital's OP and his continued genuine perseverance in this issue.
Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
It isn't a mystery if you read the wigwam thread linked above, putting aside your obvious straw man.
hermit
Aye, right.
Classic audio room thread 
Ian, it is what it is.
In your room/system, two decent pieces of ss electronics seem be indistinguishable. Is that really a problem?
Perhaps the moral of this particular story is that from now on you can simply focus your time and money where differences may be more easily distinguished e.g. cartridges and speakers.
Ian, it is what it is.
In your room/system, two decent pieces of ss electronics seem be indistinguishable. Is that really a problem?
Perhaps the moral of this particular story is that from now on you can simply focus your time and money where differences may be more easily distinguished e.g. cartridges and speakers.
Whaleblue
Southbound
Radine, I know you're only being friendly and helpful, and if I've not made it obvious I'll try to re-phrase...
1. I've spent a lot of money on the speakers, and I think my system sounds fantastic.
2. Others find they are noticing quite significant benefits to using better DACs and pre-amps compared to lesser ones. I don't find this.
3. I therefore come to the conclusion that one of the following holds true:
A. I (and others who have heard my system) are cloth eared.
B. Something about my setup (room, supports, leccy supply etc. etc.) is holding my sound back to a level where I'm stuck at the lowest common denominator.
C. My method of appraisal is wrong, and with long term relaxed listening the benefits of the better kit becomes apparent.
D. Other folk are in some way deluded. Expectation bias (or whatever) has messed with their heads and there is no actual difference between DACs/pre-amps.
State X == A. or D. are true. I can sell my Young DAC and TEAD Vibe and spend the money elsewhere.
State Y == B. or C. are true. Relax/fix the system issue, and enjoy better sounds.
I simply want to achieve state X or Y with enough personal certainty to make the correct sell/don't sell decision.
1. I've spent a lot of money on the speakers, and I think my system sounds fantastic.
2. Others find they are noticing quite significant benefits to using better DACs and pre-amps compared to lesser ones. I don't find this.
3. I therefore come to the conclusion that one of the following holds true:
A. I (and others who have heard my system) are cloth eared.
B. Something about my setup (room, supports, leccy supply etc. etc.) is holding my sound back to a level where I'm stuck at the lowest common denominator.
C. My method of appraisal is wrong, and with long term relaxed listening the benefits of the better kit becomes apparent.
D. Other folk are in some way deluded. Expectation bias (or whatever) has messed with their heads and there is no actual difference between DACs/pre-amps.
State X == A. or D. are true. I can sell my Young DAC and TEAD Vibe and spend the money elsewhere.
State Y == B. or C. are true. Relax/fix the system issue, and enjoy better sounds.
I simply want to achieve state X or Y with enough personal certainty to make the correct sell/don't sell decision.
Ciunas Audio
Trade: Ciunas Audio
Ian, have you tried plugging all your equipment into one power extension block to check for the possibility of & minimise any ground noise issues?
Whaleblue
Southbound
John, yes, per previous suggestion I've now got the speakers/Vibe and Young on one "hydra", with the Sonos connected via optical and plugged into a socket on the old house ring. [edit] and the Sonos is not connected direct to the pre.
I'll also try some listening via the CDP which will require some shuffling of connections.
Is it not safe to assume that a double wall socket provides the same surety of minimised ground issues? Or for that matter all the sockets on my separate ring main - fitted by a qualified electrician?
I'll also try some listening via the CDP which will require some shuffling of connections.
Is it not safe to assume that a double wall socket provides the same surety of minimised ground issues? Or for that matter all the sockets on my separate ring main - fitted by a qualified electrician?
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
If you had a ground loop you would hear it, do you?
Keith.
Keith.
Whaleblue
Southbound
Nothing hums.
Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
I think you know this already given the way you've worded it with the qualifiers 'enough' and 'personal' but you are never going to be 100% absolutely certain either way. Whatever decision you choose to make is going to carry with it niggling doubts. If you do sell your Vibe, for example, further down the line over the longer term you are likely to think that something might be missing, something that didn't show up in the quick-fire switching abx.
Otoh, you may continue to think that the monetary value tied up in the Vibe is burning a hole somewhere.
More investigation is necessary using a variety of approaches until you are fairly certain one way or the other.
Whaleblue
Southbound
The words were chosen carefully.
To be clear, I've no holes burning, nor a lack of funds to ultimately spend the money elsewhere too if required. So it's only an issue as far as my own personal satisfaction is concerned.
Whaleblue
Southbound
Actually, when I listen, many may be surprised to hear, I simply listen and enjoy the music.
This whole business is something I'd like to resolve largely for the sake of resolving it to my own satisfaction. Perhaps it comes from being a computer programmer for 30+ years, or at least that being a programmer is indicative of having the kind of brain that makes me think this way in the first place?
Ciunas Audio
Trade: Ciunas Audio
Common mistake, I'm afraid.
I think we have been over this ground (sorry for the pun) before?
A ground loop, carrying noise currents between different devices, does not necessarily cause an audible hum - it can have the effect of squashing dynamics, to some extent, of shrinking sound stage, of minimising audible differences between front-end devices. Only when removed is the audibility of the effect noticed - beforehand it seems like everything sounds fine - no noticeably audible problem
maxflinn
pfm Member
Ian, with or without the Vibe, and with a variety of DACs you have not noticed any differences. This to my mind means that all of the products tested have been audibly transparent, as they should be.
Therefore it is clear to me that what you 'may be missing' can only be distortion, and this is unwanted, so....
Therefore it is clear to me that what you 'may be missing' can only be distortion, and this is unwanted, so....
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