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LinnT-cable Vrs AO cable

This is a very interesting thread for a number of reasons.

Does anybody else here think it's absurd that the performance of a renowned and often very expensive deck is so fussy and dependent on the tension/orientation of the arm cable?

I had always assumed that the reason dressing the arm cable is so critical is that it provides a mechanism for damping the belt's ability to store both torsional and rocking energy in the springs. As such, the goal of dressing is to allow perfect vertical movement of the suspended mass while limiting its sideways and rotational/twisting movement as far as possible, and at the same time avoiding vibrational feedback to the arm base. It's pretty obvious that doing all these jobs to a level that most engineers might consider adequate is practically impossible, and this is one of the fundamental weaknesses in the Sondek design, and the reason it suffers from feedback bass bloom as well as audible speed instability. It also suggests that Urika might be a speed stability downgrade.

At any rate, it's pretty clear that cable stiffness, turntable siting, and arm mass will all affect the optimal arm dressing method for the best trade-off between wow and feedback. It seems to me that the first question when dressing the cable is 'what kind of music do you listen to?' and the second is 'how badly is your Sondek sited for acoustic feedback?'. If your deck is very cleanly sited and you listen to classical music quietly, then a taught cable should reduce wow a little. If you like loud deep bass notes and you're a bit tone deaf, and your deck is on a floor-standing support near the speakers you probably need to decouple the arm from the p-clip more effectively, and so should choose a more supple arm-dressing arrangement.

It seems to me that the deck may suffer from a range of design problems that the latest upgrades don't completely address, which problems are broached by this thread.
 
It's all based your assumption that your turntable is simply better than an LP12, which until I hear one side by side I'm not convinced, nor do I think that it suffers from much of what you imagine.

How are those needle drops coming along?

FWIW, it doesn't take long to setup an LP12 or to dress the arm cable.
 
Does anybody else here think it's absurd that the performance of a renowned and often very expensive deck is so fussy and dependent on the tension/orientation of the arm cable?

Anyone new to the LP12 would be forgiven for thinking so.

Would it not make sense to try to eliminate this effect by continuing to run the very thin, light and flexible internal arm wire out of the base of the arm and onto a secure part of the fixed chasis, from where the more usual type of phono cables could be run with no effect on the suspension?

Andrew
 
My post above was about the mechanical issues of the arm cable. It's not particularly fanciful that the Sondek belt rocks the suspended mass, nor that tension in the arm cable presents a pretty direct route for vibrations in the deck to reach the base of the arm. That's basic mechanics/dynamics.

It's easy to test my speculation anyway. Mounting the motor on the subchassis and setting up a very loose arm cable should show measurable improvements in wow and acoustic feedback respectively. Of course, it will probably play havoc with motor noise, but that's another issue.
 
It's easy to test my speculation anyway. Mounting the motor on the subchassis and setting up a very loose arm cable should show measurable improvements in wow and acoustic feedback respectively. Of course, it will probably play havoc with motor noise, but that's another issue.

If it's easy go for it, test it yourself, make some before/after recordings so we can all hear this measurable improvement. If not, it's all speculation, like saying the motor on your turntable passes vibration directly to the flimsey platter creating havoc with the music.
 
Anyone new to the LP12 would be forgiven for thinking so.

Would it not make sense to try to eliminate this effect by continuing to run the very thin, light and flexible internal arm wire out of the base of the arm and onto a secure part of the fixed chasis, from where the more usual type of phono cables could be run with no effect on the suspension?

Yes, that's a very good suggestion, but then you need a separate mechanism for damping the tendency of the belt to pull and rock the suspended stuff every time the music gets dynamic and stylus drag excites it. It might be a killer Sondek mod to attach a bit of stiff flex between the plinth and a point on the subchassis far from the arm, and use filament-type arm cable inside the deck. That would serve to stabilise the suspended stuff while perhaps reducing the directness of the feedback route.

But maybe reducing acoustic feedback and wow would ruin the Sondek's unique sound.
 
If it's easy go for it, test it yourself, make some before/after recordings so we can all hear this measurable improvement. If not, it's all speculation, like saying the motor on your turntable passes vibration directly to the flimsey platter creating havoc with the music.

Yes, my comments are speculation, as I've made clear. Blake said "what is now proved, was once only imagined".

I've no doubt that you're right in saying that my Technics is subject to a wide range of similar design flaws and mechanical problems. I've never said it's perfect. It's far from it. But this thread is about the Sondek's arm cable, so shouldn't we stick to discussing that?
 
Yes, that's a very good suggestion, but then you need a separate mechanism for damping the tendency of the belt to pull and rock the suspended stuff every time the music gets dynamic and stylus drag excites it.

Surely that's made negligible by the mass and inertia of the heavy platter. If it were a light platter it would be a different story.
 
It's all based your assumption that your turntable is simply better than an LP12

A claim I have never made. I have said that my Technics seems less wowy than any Sondek I've heard, and can therefore hold a note and a tune better. That matters more to some than others. There are many things that a good Sondek does better. Speed stability isn't one of them, in my limited experience.

...which until I hear one side by side I'm not convinced, nor do I think that it suffers from much of what you imagine.

Most hi-fi shows seem to have decks like the WTA and SP10 lurking somewhere. You're right to trust only your own ears.

How are those needle drops coming along?

They're not. I have no way of making a decent quality recording at the moment. If you want to post me a good ADC or field recorder, I'll be happy to work out how to make needle-drops and upload them.

FWIW, it doesn't take long to setup an LP12 or to dress the arm cable.

I plan to try it one day.
 
Surely that's made negligible by the mass and inertia of the heavy platter. If it were a light platter it would be a different story.

Maybe it's not massive enough. Maybe the mass just pushes the resonance down to lower frequencies of wow. All I know is that I have recently listened to three Radikal Sondek SE's and thought I could hear speed instability on all of them. I'm speculating on the source of it. Maybe the Radikal software isn't perfect. Maybe it's just me. But one thing to note is this: unlike most here I have named the record and the moment when I think someone with good awareness of pitch can hear the phenomenon. That's more than most commenters offer in terms of verifiability. Stick Don McLean on the Radikal Sondek and listen to the piano after his first 'died'. If you don't hear the piano rise slowly and slightly in pitch there's no need to care.

If you hear it, then I'm guessing at the most likely source, and the relevance of arm cable dressing, and if not, then I'm just one more online nutter whose eccentric opinions you can safely disregard.
 
Maybe it's not massive enough. Maybe the mass just pushes the resonance down to lower frequencies of wow. All I know is that I have recently listened to three Radikal Sondek SE's and thought I could hear speed instability on all of them. I'm speculating on the source of it. Maybe the Radikal software isn't perfect. Maybe it's just me. But one thing to note is this: unlike most here I have named the record and the moment when I think someone with good awareness of pitch can hear the phenomenon. That's more than most commenters offer in terms of verifiability. Stick Don McLean on the Radikal Sondek and listen to the piano after his first 'died'. If you don't hear the piano rise slowly and slightly in pitch there's no need to care.

If you hear it, then I'm guessing at the most likely source, and the relevance of arm cable dressing, and if not, then I'm just one more online nutter whose eccentric opinions you can safely disregard.

Well I played that song a few weeks ago and didn't hear what you did on my lesser LP12, so I'll just disregard your comments which seem to appear on every LP12 thread there is. :rolleyes:
 
I don't have any Don McLean, but will see if I can get hold of a copy. I like the idea of being able to pinpoint (if not measure) an issue, and have five turntables here I can try it on...

Andrew
 
They're not. I have no way of making a decent quality recording at the moment. If you want to post me a good ADC or field recorder, I'll be happy to work out how to make needle-drops and upload them.

All it takes is the most basic computer with a sound card(mic input), a cable to plug into your tape output and free software like Audacity. Surely you have pc if you can post to this forum?
 
All it takes is the most basic computer with a sound card, a cable to plug into your tape output and free software like Audacity. Surely you have pc if you can post to this forum?

I've got a Powerbook, or whatever they're called now. It seems to have a microphone minijack, but I'm not sure that will make a very good recording. I also have several computers down in my office, but I'm not going to all the trouble to unplug all the RAIDs and whatnot, and dragging it all up to my listening room, when I could just slap Tubeway Army on the deck, sit back, and enjoy. I plan to pick up a Sony field recorder soon, perhaps for Christmas, so be patient.
 
I've got a Powerbook, or whatever they're called now. It seems to have a microphone minijack, but I'm not sure that will make a very good recording.

If it has a mic input it should work. I use an 8 year old desktop computer with the sound card that came with it and it makes pretty decent recordings. I have posted quite a few out there if you want to listen. I would definitely not waste any money on something fancier to just do a few needle drops once in a while. The quality is good enough to show up meaningful differences so it does a good of enough job for me.
 
sonddek.

I just don't hear what you do with regards to pitch on an LP12.

Perhaps you are playing a song from an old record?

If you are in the UK you are more than welcome to listen to my deck and post your opinion on its pitch. That's a genuine offer, at the very least we meet for a chat and listen to music.

Andrew.
 
I know this thread is now drifting slightly off-topic, but I just dug out my nearly-forty-years-old copy of American Pie and I'm unable to hear the change in pitch on my LP12. Possibly I'm deaf, possibly Sonddek has a slightly off-centre copy. My original copy of Rickie Lee Jones' eponymous album is visibly only slightly off-centre but Last Chance Texaco makes this very audible.

Mick
 
Thanks Andrew for your kind offer. Where are you?

As regards blaming it on an off-centre record or some other factor, the problem with that is that I found four other record players DIDN'T do the same thing, using the very same copy of the LP, but three Sondeks did. I hasten to add that it is a VERY subtle effect, but I think it offers an insight into why I find another deck so tuneful after 26 years with a Sondek. It may be that this effect _only_ occurs with a Radikal Sondek. If you can't hear it, so be it, but to be honest it wasn't until I gave Radikal Sondeks very critical listening and direct comparison with other decks that I realised the piano's pitch was rising. We all listen in different ways.
 
Sonddek.

I'm in York.

Those who have been to my house know it's fun first, politics second.

I would like your opinion on my Radikal LP12s ability to do pitch.

Andrew
 


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