High Mass vs. Suspended decks

[BlueEyes]

Yes I heard Tony's and was impressed by what I heard, and his hospitality, but he didn't play anything fast and loud which I would have liked to have listened to, by contrast, although I fully appreciate that the neighbours probably wouldn't!

Amazing, The Denon 103 seems to polarise opinion no less than ATC actives.

 

[Craig B]

High mass sounds best in a big cathedral.

 

[BlueEyes]

Craig, elucidate for those like me who are a bit thick?

Alright then, just for me.

 

[Craig B]

Hint: I used to be a reluctant alter boy.

Craig

 

[Markus S]

Craig, elucidate for those like me who are a bit thick?

Alright then, just for me.

Go to church next Sunday and you'll have a revelation.

 

[Andy1912]

great and interesting post

thanks

Mostly people prefer one hi fi component over the other - that doesn't mean they are better. I demo-d my gyro against a few (much more expensive) LP12s and they couldn't touch it to my ear - I thought the LP12s dull and uninspiring. But, hey, lots love them.

BW

Andy

 

[Mike Reed]

High mass sounds best in a big cathedral.

Luvvit !

 

[Mike Reed]

............. and his plinth was hollow and was made out of the Russ Andrews seismic wood thingy?!

Forgive my technical jargon.

Luvvit almost as much. Such literary expertise !

 

[Mike Reed]

RICHARD,

As you were inadvertantly instrumental in setting me on a path to upgrade my Orbe to a (preferably) non suspended, heavy deck, with commensurate change of arm from Five, maybe I can use the auspices of your fine and interesting thread to pick the brains of fellow experienced analogue afficionados.

I have earmarked A C Acustic, but have come across Acoustic Solid (?), which has the benefit of being made in this country.

Would the top Nottingham Analogue (of which I have no knowledge) be a serious contender?

I had considered the SME 30, and likewise have considered, and heard, the Avid Acutus, but I think I want a change of design (but don't know why).

Any others?

I believe this to be on topic, but apologise if there's a hint of thread-crapping; just seems to be apposite to the subject matter.

 

[YNWOAN]

Do High mass tables tend to exude a rock solid unflappable sound and strong bass ? Do suspended decks tend to give a leaner, prat focused sound with a bright midrange and treble ?

It is indeed tempting to draw such generalisations and, in some instances, there is an element of truth to them. However, the problem is that such a generalisation fails to take into account the complex design elements of different designs and, as a result, there are many exceptions to the rule.

Now, having dismissed generalisation of components, I will make one of my own ; over the years I have found that high mass tends to have a quite different colouration characteristic compared to low mass. High mass often exhibits a broader saddle of colouration and this can manifest itself in the low treble and upper bass, whilst low mass can give narrower bands of colouration (apparent frequency boost or attenuation), but these may be more pronounced or/and complex in nature.

The colourations of high mass can give the impression of a smooth sound with 'big' bass and low mass can give the impression of increased leading edge attack but quite an uneven frequency response.

Now, let us consider two quite different designs that appear to fall into the high mass, low mass camps but actually exist in neither (fully).

The Nottingham Analogue Dais appears to be a high mass deck. Indeed, it has no suspension and a high mass platter. However, whilst it does have a high mass platter (and a low torque motor which effectively increases the rotational moment of the platter within the context of the drive system), it also has a surprisingly low mass chassis (the component linking the arm to the platter - not the base that the whole deck sits on).

On the other hand, the Voyd has a low mass platter but it is driven by three very high torque motors (the Reference at any rate) -this effectively imbues the Voyd platter with the inertia of a hugely heavier platter, without actually having increased mass. At the same time it uses a relatively low mass chassis, but no lower in mass than that used by the Dais (made from entirely different materials though).

In short, generalisations are fun, but rarely accurate .

 

[BlueEyes]

Satellite delay...high mass...cathedral...don't give up the day job

 

[Tony L]

Now, let us consider two quite different designs that appear to fall into the high mass, low mass camps but actually exist in neither (fully).

The Nottingham Analogue Dais appears to be a high mass deck. Indeed, it has no suspension and a high mass platter. However, whilst it does have a high mass platter (and a low torque motor which effectively increases the rotational moment of the platter within the context of the drive system), it also has a surprisingly low mass chassis (the component linking the arm to the platter - not the base that the whole deck sits on).

On the other hand, the Voyd has a low mass platter but it is driven by three very high torque motors (the Reference at any rate) -this effectively imbues the Voyd platter with the inertia of a hugely heavier platter, without actually having increased mass. At the same time it uses a relatively low mass chassis, but no lower in mass than that used by the Dais (made from entirely different materials though).

In short, generalisations are fun, but rarely accurate .

I'd put my own deck (Garrard 301 in slate plinth) in a very similar no mans land, it's platter mass is no higher than a Linn, yet it is powered by a ridiculously powerful motor coupled quite firmly to the platter via the idler (it comes up to speed in half a second or so, almost instant), there is no hard platter / record interface or clamp (both being things I do not like), yet the whole is very solid and inert. To my mind this type of deck neatly straddles the gap and takes the best from both camps; they have the remarkable quietness and solidity in the groove of a real high-mass deck, yet the drive and punch of a low mass deck. I certainly feel my 301 combines what I liked about both my (various) LP12(s) and my Spacedeck.

Tony.

 

[YNWOAN]

I agree Tony.............except that I don't rate slate as a plinth/arm termination material (I realise some think it is God's gift in this regard).

 

[Mike Reed]

I'd put my own deck (Garrard 301 in slate plinth) in a very similar no mans land, it's platter mass is no higher than a Linn, yet it is powered by a ridiculously powerful motor coupled quite firmly to the platter via the idler (it comes up to speed in half a second or so, almost instant), there is no hard platter / record interface or clamp (both being things I do not like), yet the whole is very solid and inert. To my mind this type of deck neatly straddles the gap and takes the best from both camps; they have the remarkable quietness and solidity in the groove of a real high-mass deck, yet the drive and punch of a low mass deck. I certainly feel my 301 combines what I liked about both my (various) LP12(s) and my Spacedeck.

Tony.

Is this 'ridiculously powerful motor' in your 301 the same as the one in in the 401? I had the latter, but can't remember its holding a candle to the outboard motors of today; my AC Orbe one, for example.

I still find the idea of idler wheel drive (Garrard, Goldring) pushing onto one interior part of a not particularly substantial platter to be a sign of the times, when rumble filters were employed in amp's of necessity.

Are there any idler drive t/ts made today?

 

[YNWOAN]

Yes, there are a couple of idler drive decks still being manufactured; the Saskia by Oswald Mills (though I'm not sure that they are actually commercially available as such -it is shown as available on the OMA website but I've never heard of anyone that actually owns one), and one by Teres (though I have some first hand experience of this unit and would say that it is not without issues).

 

[BlueEyes]

Mike, I don't believe there are but my understanding was that they were, as a whole, so well built it would not be cost-effective to make then today as opposed to a belt driven tt.

I stand to be corrected.

And if you want to see the mother of all motors have a look at that of an EMT 930st idler which whilst not operating like a cement mixer, as kindly suggested above, could probably power one!

 

[YNWOAN]

A big motor does not necessarily mean anything in itself and is certainly no guarantee of performance.

 

[Patrick Dixon]

I still find the idea of idler wheel drive (Garrard, Goldring) pushing onto one interior part of a not particularly substantial platter to be a sign of the times, when rumble filters were employed in amp's of necessity.

Well idler wheels are predominately rubber, so much the same material as used in belt drive transmission. As someone said a couple of pages ago (Robert, IIRC), it's all about managing the compromises inherent in each approach, and whatever your prejudices, in practice rumble isn't an issue with the idler Garrards.

 

[packtech]

Yes, there are a couple of idler drive decks still being manufactured; the Saskia by Oswald Mills (though I'm not sure that they are actually commercially available as such -it is shown as available on the OMA website but I've never heard of anyone that actually owns one), and one by Teres (though I have some first hand experience of this unit and would say that it is not without issues).

Don't they make these anymore??
http://www.garrard501.com/

 

[YNWOAN]

.....in practice rumble isn't an issue with the idler Garrards.

This contradicts my experience (though I guess it depends how 'picky' one is).

_______________________________________________________

Don't they make these anymore??
http://www.garrard501.com/

Yes, in theory. However, the one in the pic is the only one I have ever actually seen (or heard of) and I don't think that more than a couple have ever been built.