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Trump Part 11

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maxflinn said:
Is he worse than George W Bush?

Is the intensely violent and bigoted billionaire gangster oligarchy that Bush, Obama and Clinton represented worse?
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Yes to the first, no to the second, and very obviously so.

It would maybe help you to view a wider picture rather than trying to frame absolutely everything through a single myopic prism of Israel/Palestine. Start thinking about civil rights, homophobia, racism, wealth redistribution etc etc rather than simply trying to chase Jewish money etc. This is the main difference between us; for you the bogeyman of Israel is all encompassing and frames everything, for me it is barely on my map. I am far more concerned about Black Lives Matter, womans rights, gay rights, healthcare for the poor, art, science, music, personal freedom etc. I don’t really care what deeply entrenched groups of religious fundamentalists get up to, hating is just what they do, though as a somewhat outspoken atheist if I had to live anywhere in that whole bigoted area of the world Israel would be the only contender!
 
maxflinn said:
Vuk this episode of On Contact with Chris Hedges is very good:

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max.

like i said, i watch this show every week -- and yes, that was a particularly good one.
this one is probably my faourite:

On Contact: The Rise of the Charter Schools with Diane Ravitch


while everyone obsesses about trump's personality, sh*t like this is happening unchallenged and destroying the country.
 
maxflinn said:
You therefore lap up absolutely everything negative posted about either, from whatever source, no matter how ridiculous it is (Russia controlling the minds of all Americans being one example), and then project onto those who argue against much of this propaganda the label of apologist, fanboy etc.
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Max, this is drivel. The Newsweek piece said something about 'controlling the American mind' which is a figure of speech. Your assertion, above, that we believe this to be saying that the Russians have exerted actual mind control, is laughable. To then exaggerate it to infer that all American minds were controlled by the Russians just makes you look like an idiot. If that's the basis for your argument, and the strength of it, then I'm sorry, but debating with you is a waste of everybody's time.
 
There is pretty incontrovertible evidence that propaganda was placed on social media from automated bot accounts originating from Russia that were both pro-Trump and pro-Brexit, i.e. there is no doubt that Russia meddled in these areas. The only question is how effective it was. Given how close both votes were I imagine not much of a tipping point would be needed, and 45,000 bot accounts (in the case of Brexit) tapping into certain fears and paranoias would likely do some real damage.
 
Tony L said:
Yes to the first, no to the second, and very obviously so.
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Why would Putin be worse than Bush when Bush took the US into an illegal war that has left up to a million innocent people dead and caused the creation of ISIS? What has Putin done that is comparable?

Why do you consider the intensely violent and bigoted billionaire gangster oligarchy that Bush, Obama and Clinton represented to be better than the Russian establishment when the former have destroyed Iraq, Libya and Syria leaving over a million dead, millions homeless, countries in chaos, refugees fleeing in their millions, the rise of ISIS etc? What has the Russian establishment done that is comparable?

Tony L said:
It would maybe help you to view a wider picture rather than trying to frame absolutely everything through a single myopic prism of Israel/Palestine. Start thinking about civil rights, homophobia, racism, wealth redistribution etc etc rather than simply trying to chase Jewish money etc.
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More ridiculously loaded nonsense! Pure intellectual dishonesty is all that is, and you know it!

Tony L said:
This is the main difference between us; for you the bogeyman of Israel is all encompassing and frames everything, for me it is barely on my map. I am far more concerned about Black Lives Matter, womans rights, gay rights, healthcare for the poor, art, music, personal freedom etc. I don’t really care what deeply entrenched groups of religious fundamentalists get up to, hating is just what they do, though as a somewhat outspoken atheist if I had to live anywhere in that whole bigoted area of the world Israel would be the only contender!
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More loaded nonsense. You can't really do respectful debate unless it's with your echo chamber flock who all agree with you, can you? You hate being challenged on your little patch of cyberspace so you resort to intellectual dishonesty and sensationalised spin. You ever thought about being a politician?

There are many differences between you and I Tony, which I'm very happy about...

I'm anti-war. That means all war. I don't want to see it anywhere as it's the epitome of evil, IMO.

You though, you don't mind millions dying due to US-instigated wars, do you? Which is why you see the pyromaniac US establishment with millions dead in its wake as being better than a Russian establishment with vastly fewer dead to its credit. To you the former is good while the latter is evil.

To a rational person the regime responsible for the most slaughtered innocents would be considered the worst. The US regime wins that in a landslide!

You claim to care about the poor yet label those supportive of the real progressives in the Democratic party who might actually do something about inequality as radical hard leftists, while championing the corrupt warmongers in it who are about as useful to the poor as Trump.

I honestly don't think you're as intelligent as I thought you were, to be honest. You just latch onto principles that make you feel good but support those least likely to adopt them. Attacking Corbyn - the best chance the UK's poor have had for some respite in decades, being another example.
 
vuk said:
while everyone obsesses about trump's personality, sh*t like this is happening unchallenged and destroying the country.
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Sadly, we here in the UK are just as afflicted by the intrusion of profit making private concerns into every one of our publicly owned services.

Politics however has surely been distilled down to simply personality and branding. Enough of the voting public consider themselves to be informed enough without feeling the need to seek out alternative viewpoints or to research subjects that might impact their lives in depth.

Whilst Max's views might take a sensationalist angle when broaching this subject, it HAS become remarkably easy to steer the malleable electorate towards a populist POV without fear of scrutiny.
 
Max, I obviously don't want to speak for Tony, but sooo much projection on your behalf. Ridiculous, quite frankly.
 
Tony L said:
There is pretty incontrovertible evidence that propaganda was placed on social media from automated bot accounts originating from Russia that were both pro-Trump and pro-Brexit, i.e. there is no doubt that Russia meddled in these areas. The only question is how effective it was. Given how close both votes were I imagine not much of a tipping point would be needed, and 45,000 bot accounts (in the case of Brexit) tapping into certain fears and paranoias would likely do some real damage.
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FFS, do you really believe this nonsense about 45,000 bots making millions vote a certain way? We've both seen on this very forum how rare it is for even the very best argued points to make someone change their mind, yet these 'bots', whatever the fu** they're even supposed to be have convinced millions and millions of people to vote a certain way, superseding all the other efforts from the politicians themselves and the regular media to convince people to do so?

Do you not realise how utterly ridiculous that sounds?
 
merlin said:
Whilst Max's views might take a sensationalist angle when broaching this subject, it HAS become remarkably easy to steer the malleable electorate towards a populist POV without fear of scrutiny.
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Max himself is pure popularism. The social media ‘lefty’ as opposed to the social media ‘righty’, but just as much the hollow caricature and stereotype. I happily cite the ill-researched guff he writes here on this site as evidence of the wider problem. Even when proven wrong over and over again the beliefset is so entrenched it just loops regardless of any logical disconnect... an “anti war” person willingly and very actively promoting a far-right white suprematist etc. He’s obviously not a bot though as any computer program would crash at that point!
 
Trump won the election by winning in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin,ie, the Rust Belt states that the 08 crash hit harder than most. He did this by selling the notion that he was the man to create jobs there. That's it, that's all there is to it and it has nothing to do with bots :rolleyes:

If the corporate Democrats remain in control of the party for the 2020 elections then all Trump has to do is make sure there are plenty of jobs created in these states and he'll win again, bots or no bots!
 
Tony L said:
Max himself is pure popularism. The social media ‘lefty’ as opposed to the social media ‘righty’, but just as much the hollow caricature and stereotype. I happily cite the ill-researched guff he writes here on this site as evidence of the wider problem. Even when proven wrong over and over again the beliefset is so entrenched it just loops regardless of any logical disconnect... an “anti war” person willingly and very actively promoting a far-right white suprematist etc. He’s obviously not a bot though as any computer program would crash at that point!
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I don't disagree Tony. How do you fight modern day right wing popularism though? How do you triumph over it from the opposition benches?
 
Tony L said:
an “anti war” person willingly and very actively promoting a far-right white suprematist etc. He’s obviously not a bot though as any computer program would crash at that point!
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Clinton is a Neocon warmonger. A lunatic who has never seen a war she hasn't liked.

Trump may end up the same but I'm afraid until he does then nobody can claim that an anti-war person who preferred him to Clinton was wrong, no matter how many of your shallow little acolytes agree with you saying otherwise.
 
merlin said:
I don't disagree Tony. How do you fight modern day right wing popularism though? How do you triumph over it from the opposition benches?
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I still like to think it can be challenged from a logical sensible centre-ground. It is tedious work but the extremes on both sides are quite simply wrong in ideology and are very often lying too. It is a mistake to view politics purely from the viewpoint of the candidates and parties available, this being why I always describe myself as a ‘centre-left social democrat’. That gives me some overlap with Labour, Lib Dems, Greens etc, but little if any with the Tories, UKIP, BNP etc. I will continue to make arguments from this position even if I support no current UK party. Come election day I will, as ever, vote for the one that is most likely to shift things from where they are now (catastrophically failed neoliberalism) and towards the centre ground taking into account a flawed and biased system that relies on tactical voting. I see no point in making myself an extremist in any way as it would diminish any argument I may be able to make. This can be won from the centre.
 
I'm worried Max is being held hostage in the St.Petersburg Troll Factory. Either that or they've hacked his pfm account.
 
Tony L said:
I still like to think it can be challenged from a logical sensible centre-ground. It is tedious work but the extremes on both sides are quite simply wrong in ideology and are very often lying too. It is a mistake to view politics purely from the viewpoint of the candidates and parties available, this being why I always describe myself as a ‘centre-left social democrat’. That gives me some overlap with Labour, Lib Dems, Greens etc, but little if any with the Tories, UKIP, BNP etc. I will continue to make arguments from this position even if I support no current UK party. Come election day I will, as ever, vote for the one that is most likely to shift things from where they are now (catastrophically failed neoliberalism) and towards the centre ground taking into account a flawed and biased system that relies on tactical voting. I see no point in making myself an extremist in any way as it would diminish any argument I may be able to make. This can be won from the centre.
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I'd like to think you are right Tony. Post Blair however I am not convinced. Seeking to be educated, informed and rational is, IMHO, unlikely to combat the forces of popularism with an increasing polarised society but I would be delighted to be proven wrong.
 
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