Oh Britain, what have you done (part XXIII)?

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Maybe the EU will realise this and give a better deal and sooner than expected as this vote could scupper everything and lead to WTO terms for a couple years while negotiations continue and enough time is available for the meaningful vote to take place.

Going to WTO terms as a temporary measure means we're out, because we don't need WTO terms while we're still in. It's not a period of purgatory before the sunlit uplands and elysian fields. Once we're out, I very much doubt we'll rejoin, as joining would almost certainly require us to join the Eurozone. If you're harbouring thoughts of rejoining, far, far better not to leave in the first place.

 

[TheDecameron]

Surely the really sinister part is that they've gone out of their way to get photos of them all laughing, rather than just using stock MP headshots or other expressions?

Yes, the Political Elite are laughing at YOU, the humble, hardworkingfamilies Brexit voter.

 

[markvdv]

Or, the elected MPs in a representative democracy don't want the UK to to be forced out of the EU on poor terms just because some random date has been set in the diary. It's not a competition. The only thing that must happen is that we leave the EU—all else is politics.

Why the rush?

Stephen

Date can be changed, if all 28 EU members agree it needs to be changed. Maybe you get the impression EU want to delay everything as much as possible, but that could be UK press and UK parliaments objective, to make you think that. Most within EU hate UK is leaving, but accepted it is and agreed it should be over with ASAP, 29march 2019. Out of EU, after that date, UK gets some time, the Dutch for example want a transition period lasting decades, but UK will be out of EU by 29 march 2019.

There is more, some claim UK can unilaterally end Brexit, UK would stay in EU, by UK parliaments decision. They speak about this since 2016, since then they also agree European Court needs to decide if this is possible. End 2017 it appears some of these people in UK claim they are going to try a UK court refer them to EU court, sometime early 2018. They have this position since 2016 and maybe they will take action early 2018. To me it sounds as if they want uncertainty more than certainty.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Date can be changed, if all 28 EU members agree it needs to be changed. Maybe you get the impression EU want to delay everything as much as possible, but that could be UK press and UK parliaments objective, to make you think that. Most within EU hate UK is leaving, but accepted it is and agreed it should be over with ASAP,

I have little difficulty imagining a scenario in February 2019, with some key sticking points still on the table. The UK suggests to the rEU that a little more time would be a good idea, all round. The rEU agrees that, in principle, an extension to the 2 year Article 50 deadline is not a problem. Then Spain sidles up "How about we have a little chat about Gibraltar, before we agree that extension, hey?"

 

[markvdv]

Change february 2019 for september/oktober 2018, EU has communicated over and over again, that is the deadline. Eleventh hour is fall 2018. EU has communicated over and over and over again too that no tradedeal will be concluded befor Brexit date or soon after. EU also communicated many times about UK parliament discussions being unrealistic. EU stressed May should end these unrealistic discussions and not feed them. They try to be diplomatic in their choice of words.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

OK, my point remains though. Any prospect of an agreed extension to the 2-year deadline is highly likely to involve some horse-trading with Spain over Gibraltar.

 

[timola]

From the last few posts it seems that in losing the vote last night DD has lost 3 months of negotiation time and champagne swilling. It may even focus the EU side a bit more as I think DD knows what he wants (Canada +++ or WTO). I'm not sure what the EU wants other than the money and inflicting some pain.

Maybe DD will play another blinder and somehow get the rEU to ratify any deal before he puts it to the meaningful vote in the commons....raising the stakes a bit always focuses the mind.

 

[timola]

As for Spain and Gibraltar, I reckon if Spain kicks up a bigger fuss than usual, they'll get slapped down by the bigger EU boys....I guess some money their way will do the job.

 

[markvdv]

EU and EP has given something like a new roadmap, no trade talk, first only transition talk. Aslo when transition talk should be concluded. Part of transition talk is Spain Gibraltar, it is scheduled befor trade talks. All fun things come befor trade

 

[markvdv]

Oh the RAND trade-options report does mention Cyprus (military base??) needs to be discussed too, being one or multiple landborders between UK and EU.

 

[HairyHaggis]

yep. the eu has handled itself pretty well, professionally, this far. it would appear to know what it wants. the only stumbling blocks are the amateurish attempts at "negotiation" by our very own muppets, the arch-liar davies et al. i wouldn't in fact be too surprised if the eu by this point will be only too happy to see the back of little britain and it's specialness, so that it can get on with where it wants to go.

 

[timola]

Its interesting how people can see the same events and people from diametrically opposite viewpoints.

Interesting times ahead.

 

[TheDecameron]

I can’t for the life of me understand why Davis still has a job given he has either lied to the HoC multiple times or lied to a Select Committee once. In any other walk of life gross misconduct of that magnitude would result in a disciplinary procedure and likely sacking. I really want to see some form of accountability as voters should be able to sue a party so disreputable they would accept, cover or excuse such behaviour, or a government institution (the HoC itself) which fails in its duty to police such obvious corruption.

He's there because he has a significant faction of the party backwoodsmen behind him and his leader has no power. It's a politically unstable, dangerous free for all. They're not in control of themselves but they are in control of the country.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Its interesting how people can see the same events and people from diametrically opposite viewpoints.

Interesting times ahead.

It's certainly interesting to get insight into what the other side is thinking, isn't it?

 

[stephen bennett]

Maybe DD will play another blinder

I thought you were being ironic, but you're serious, aren't you?

Goodness.

Stephen

 

[stephen bennett]

Part of transition talk is Spain Gibraltar, it is scheduled befor trade talks. All fun things come befor trade

Then on to WTO application, EU/UK tariff allocations and Argentina and the Falklands.

Any other WTO countries who'll be demanding stuff from the UK before acceptance into the WTO?

Stephen

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Then on to WTO application, EU/UK tariff allocations and Argentina and the Falklands.

Any other WTO countries who'll be demanding stuff from the UK before acceptance into the WTO?

Stephen

I can't imagine for a moment there are any other countries we've pissed off over the years who might have scores to settle. None at all.

 

[Seanm]

Wondering what those yearning for the benign, common sense leadership of the EC make of this:

A document leaked by the French newspaper Libération has revealed that Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has attempted to appease the most conservative of German politicians by offering draconian Eurozone reforms. These, in summary, would amount to the entire single-currency area being subjected to the same model that Greece has been labouring under since its first memorandum with the Troika. This confirms our warnings that Greece has been used as an ‘austerity laboratory’ to test and generate methods to be exported to the rest of the Eurozone.

https://diem25.org/leaked-commissio...ervatives-by-sacrificing-europe-to-austerity/

 

[TheDecameron]

Perhaps one of the most disturbing images this week. Something Kubrikesque about it- the jumping spider next to the man with the surgically gloved hand, Boris as a spare part.

 

[Michael P]

Maybe DD will play another blinder and somehow get the rEU to ratify any deal before he puts it to the meaningful vote in the commons....raising the stakes a bit always focuses the mind.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/featu...de-to-being-cunning-like-a-fox-20171213140892

"I AM David Davis MP, world-class negotiator and hero of Brexit, and these are my infallible strategies for outwitting any opponent.

At the start of negotiations it’s normal for both sides to make unrealistic demands. The EU asked for £39 billion so I demanded a five-foot prawn mayo baguette. There’s still some left in the fridge so I feel I won that round.

Negotiations are like a game of poker. You’ve got to show other people your cards, look really unhappy if you’ve got rubbish ones and shout ‘Snap!’ if you’ve got two the same colour.

Become a master of bluff. At the Brexit negotiations I told Barnier the UK was going to join a different European Union, to which he replied “Oh for ****’s sake!” and snapped a pencil. I knew then that I had him.

If you’re negotiating with foreigners you can tell them one thing then say something totally different back in England. It’s not like there’s some magical device for sending words to different countries.

NEVER let other negotiators know what you’re thinking via subtle visual or verbal cues. Put a plastic bucket on your head and keep shouting “Bollocks! Bollocks! Bollocks!”. Only this way will you win their respect.

Here’s an old trick from my Territorial SAS days: if events are not going in your favour, run off and hide in a ditch for several days sucking the fluid out of frogs to survive. That had the EU confused when we were meant to be discussing border controls!"