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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+2)?

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I’m not firing up the laptop and there’s no post numbers on tablet/phones. A quote would have been sufficient...
 
lordsummit said:
I’m not firing up the laptop and there’s no post numbers on tablet/phones. A quote would have been sufficient...
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eternumviti said:
Whilst the EU cynically cherry-picks away. No deal unless we get our money. Now, this deal....a trade deal in goods, where we the EU have a £90bn annual surplus with the UK? Mmmmm. This is possible. A deal in services, where you, the UK, has a surplus?

Non, Nein, Nada, NO!
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Pretty much defines 'cherry-picking'.

https://dictionaryblog.cambridge.org/2016/07/13/brexit-idioms/
 
eternumviti said:
Whilst the EU cynically cherry-picks away. No deal unless we get our money. Now, this deal....a trade deal in goods, where we the EU have a £90bn annual surplus with the UK? Mmmmm. This is possible. A deal in services, where you, the UK, has a surplus?

Non, Nein, Nada, NO!
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Let’s face it, DD &co’s efforts are more Cheggers than Chequers. They’re going to get nothing less than they deserve, in fact Mogg, Gove and Johnson are begging for it.
 
eternumviti said:
1975, post oil crisis. I think not. We were doing OK in the 60s though, some serious peaks in GDP growth. Current Chancellors would be ecstatic at some of those figures.
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The UK was in EFTA from 1960-73, then we joined the EEC, then the oil crisis hit (nothing to do with the EEC), then we held the 1975 referendum on staying in. Maybe the GDP data suggests we should go for EFTA membership or some other form of soft Brexit? I certainly don't think you can use it as an argument for a hard Brexit.
 
Mr E, you’re killing me...

But please explain how I’m wrong:

The British Gvt wants to maintain passporting, frictionless borders, custom free transport of car-parts etc Yada-yada-yada, but also wants the freedom to undercut the EU, to lower standards, to not maintain employment rights, to lower food-standards and on and on and on. This is cherry picking. I’d love you to explain your working as to how the EU is cherry picking, apart from saying, this is how it is, take it or leave it?
 
glancaster said:
The UK was in EFTA from 1960-73, then we joined the EEC, then the oil crisis hit (nothing to do with the EEC), then we held the 1975 referendum on staying in. Maybe the GDP data suggests we should go for EFTA membership or some other form of soft Brexit? I certainly don't think you can use it as an argument for a hard Brexit.
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Brexitiers often seem to favour imagined myth over actual history. Many don't appreciate how there never was a successful, independent UK, standing alone. It joined up with the rest of Europe when the Empire collapsed.

Two of the best analysts of Brexit - Timothy Snyder and Martin Wolf (one historical, one economic) - have both warned that Brexit is an unknown "abyss".

A massive dose of reality is set to hit next year.
 
notaclue said:
Two of the best analysts of Brexit - Timothy Snyder and Martin Wolf (one historical, one economic) - have both warned that Brexit is an unknown "abyss".
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Yes, it's a big unknown. Some people, probably most, are scared by that. Some people find it quite...invigorating, I think. Quite successful people, a lot of them. Risk takers. Movers, shakers. They subscribe to the Chinese view that crisis = opportunity. A few of them pop up here every so often to have a laugh at the rest of us. I find them a bit annoying, obviously, but I can't help admiring their positive outlook a little.
 
glancaster said:
Yes, it's a big unknown. Some people, probably most, are scared by that. Some people find it quite...invigorating, I think. Quite successful people, a lot of them. Risk takers. Movers, shakers. They subscribe to the Chinese view that crisis = opportunity. A few of them pop up here every so often to have a laugh at the rest of us. I find them a bit annoying, obviously, but I can't help admiring their positive outlook a little.
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There's certainly a shadowy world of disaster capitalists behind the push for Brexit. The Legatum crew. Promising everything will be fine while waiting to pounce when it isn't.

The Chinese thing, however, is another myth! Wikipedia says: "The Chinese word for "crisis" (simplified Chinese: 危机; traditional Chinese: 危機; pinyin: wēijī) is frequently invoked in Western motivational speaking as being composed of two Chinese characters respectively signifying "danger" and "opportunity". This is, however, largely incorrect, as the primary meaning of the character pronounced jī (simplified Chinese: 机; traditional Chinese: 機) is not "opportunity""

More at http://www.pinyin.info/chinese/crisis.html
 
Yes, I knew someone would bring me up on that about 5 seconds after I posted it. It's such a widespread misapprehension about the Chinese language that even though it's wrong, it's a useful shorthand to explain that kind of thinking. Still, duly admonished.

I'm not sure they're all disaster capitalists by the way, just 'if God gives you lemons, make lemonade' kind of people.
 
From The Sunday Times this morning:

"The foreign secretary told friends the Chequers agreement must be the government’s bottom line, not the opening salvo of a negotiation. A source said: “Boris makes no distinction between the offer and our bottom line. This is what we must get.” Friends said Johnson considered resigning during Thursday’s meeting when he thought May was backing a soft Brexit. “He thought there might be a long walk home,” one said.


May will hold a special cabinet meeting on Thursday to get the whole cabinet to sign off on the plans before a speech publicly setting out her position on Friday, expected to be in Newcastle."

What an odious toad Johnson is. He is desperate to find some issue to resign on and distance himself from the chaos he has been instrumental in causing. This whole bonkers idea that you can mirror EU regs and standards except when you seek to gain advantage over them is such nonsense. No UK government would ever accept such a deal in reverse and the tabloids would be full of it. We really are at the mercy of some of the worst charlatans in recent UK political history, and that's against some pretty stiff competition.
 
Ahead of the crunch speech on Friday, here's an example of May's current thinking.

Remember, we now need fine detail and workable plans. We don't need platitudes. That is not the job of a responsible government. Time is running out.

Mrs May says... "On Thursday, I told the Cabinet committee at Chequers that the deal we negotiate with the EU must present an ambitious future for our great country.
"Delivering the best Brexit is about our national future, part of the way we improve the lives of people all over the country.
"If we get them right, Brexit will be the beginning of a bright new chapter in our national story, and our best days really do lie ahead of us." https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-the-uks-best-days-lie-ahead-of-us-11266711

Oh dear.

While Minister for the Cabinet Office David Lidington says... "Or we can come together as one United Kingdom, confidently seizing new global opportunities as we build a prosperous, secure nation fit for the future challenges we will face."

Oh dear.

If this is the sort of stuff they are going to serve up on Friday, we are lost.
 
notaclue said:
Ahead of the crunch speech on Friday, here's an example of May's current thinking.

Remember, we now need fine detail and workable plans. We don't need platitudes. That is not the job of a responsible government. Time is running out.

Mrs May says... "On Thursday, I told the Cabinet committee at Chequers that the deal we negotiate with the EU must present an ambitious future for our great country.
"Delivering the best Brexit is about our national future, part of the way we improve the lives of people all over the country.
"If we get them right, Brexit will be the beginning of a bright new chapter in our national story, and our best days really do lie ahead of us." https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-the-uks-best-days-lie-ahead-of-us-11266711

Oh dear.

While Minister for the Cabinet Office David Lidington says... "Or we can come together as one United Kingdom, confidently seizing new global opportunities as we build a prosperous, secure nation fit for the future challenges we will face."

Oh dear.

If this is the sort of stuff they are going to serve up on Friday, we are lost.
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Make Britain Great Again™
 
Fox getting a little gentle ribbing by Marr - as is the BBC way these days. Can't help thinking a Paxman would be feeding him his bollocks with some of the guff he's trying to peddle.
 
Fox is one of the most hard right anti-Europe peddlers in the Tory Party, with a major interest in satisfying the needs of his GOP think tank friends and mass murderers in Asia. He wants a deregulated sit up and beg labour market in Britain. We might even see a record broken- for a government minister sacked twice for misconduct in public office.
 
After hearing Fox, I think we're heading for catastrophic crash-out or a constitutional crisis.

EU reaction to Friday's speech is, I fear, going to be open-mouthed horror.

The belief that our cake can be both had and eaten has become a new Government religion.
 
The split in government is of historic proportions. Everyone can see it- we are just waiting for them to come out into the open and break collective responsibility. It’s imminent.
 
'Mr Fox has said the UK can only strike its own trade deals if it is not part of a customs union - and he told Andrew Marr his department was working with "21 different countries" to get agreements in place that could be signed as soon as the UK leaves.'

Cool, so looking at the bottom 21 in size of GDP, I think he's off to a flyer. The combined GDP of all 21 is less than that of Botswana.
 
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