MDAC First Listen (part 00111000)

[DANOFDANGER]

JohnW.....Wait wait wait wait.... no ESS FDAC. Discrete Dac ? Just when i thought i was getting bored, a spanner is thrown in. I have always wondered if discrete dacs are actually better. I assume the lower signal specs compared to IC is because of not being able to switch as fast and hence a lower order modulator or perhaps lower OSR ?

Doesn't using discrete accomodate larger/more circuitry ? Have you got pictures of any of your experimental versions ?

I am excited none the less.

 

[iansr]

Only if the device can be clocked from the MDAC2.

What will determine whether my device ( miniDSP OpenDRC DI) can be clocked from the MDAC2? What piece of information about the device do I need to ascertain?

 

[GWM]

John,

If I understand the list above correctly, this means the ESS-based FDAC won't see the light of day?
Which, based on your presentation of the DaCapo Anniversary Edition, implies there won't ever be an FDAC with S/PDIF inputs?

Thanks in advance for your clarification, keep up the good work!
Pierre

This is a pretty important point, an FDAC without SPDIF is of no use to me ,pretty disappointing if true after waiting all this time

 

[ti33er]

This is a pretty important point, an FDAC without SPDIF is of no use to me ,pretty disappointing if true after waiting all this time

SPDIF is supposedly the worst digital connection of all

Why the need for it? TV Optical output?

Could ask John if there will there be HDMI input/Audio Return channel?

--> if Music only, the Streamer should negate the need for any other connection?

However I understand frustration as I definitely need AV BYPASS and was told not too long ago that having the ADC (which I've paid for) will now not allow Bypass

I'm hoping John will find a way to have both somehow, small 3.5mm Jacks perhaps...or my RCA outputs become 'inputs' ;-)

 

[anjora]

I have done some thinking and i have lost interest in the fdac, i think i will just settle for the dual ess 9038 version of the mdac2.

The plan johnW mentioned earlier is not really what i had in mind, i just want the following
-support for very high sampling rates(768, 1536, 3072)
-good S/N ratio and distortion
-filter options(mostly relevant for 44.1 and 48 KS/s).
-powerful FIR filters(it is mostly useful for correcting speakers, not the room).
-4 to 16 channels.
-high quality ADC.

It is a bit difficult to make decisions when johnW keep changing his plans, i dislike having funds locked to a specific product, i also need to start building my speakers and get an amplifier or two.

 

[JohnW]

I have done some thinking and i have lost interest in the fdac, i think i will just settle for the dual ess 9038 version of the mdac2.

The plan johnW mentioned earlier is not really what i had in mind, i just want the following
-support for very high sampling rates(768, 1536, 3072)
-good S/N ratio and distortion
-filter options(mostly relevant for 44.1 and 48 KS/s).
-powerful FIR filters(it is mostly useful for correcting speakers, not the room).
-4 to 16 channels.
-high quality ADC.

It is a bit difficult to make decisions when johnW keep changing his plans, i dislike having funds locked to a specific product, i also need to start building my speakers and get an amplifier or two.

The MDAC2 uses A pair of ESS9028Pros (not 38's) and supports upto 768KHz (1536 / 3072 has never been mentioned for the FDAC - I'm not sure where these numbers come from)?

 

[anjora]

The MDAC2 uses A pair of ESS9028Pros (not 38's) and supports upto 768KHz (1536 / 3072 has never been mentioned for the FDAC - I'm not sure where these numbers come from)?

I was asking earlier if it would be possible to offer 1536 @16bit since it supports 768KS/s @32bit.

I outlined stuff i wanted in my post.

 

[fusion5]

The limiting factor will be the tweeter, there isn't any tweeter with decent performance above 100khz.

btw: i assume the ess version also will support 1536 KS/s at 16bit/sample, support for 3072KS/s at 8bit/sample would also be awesome, i will se if i can find a suitable tweeter capable for frequencies up to 1mhz but i doubt it exists.

Are you by any chance confusing sample rate and the tweeters frequency response?

-powerful FIR filters(it is mostly useful for correcting speakers, not the room).
-4 to 16 channels.

I very much doubt that the MDAC2 will bring the processing power required for FIR filters. Sounds more like a task for the FDAC's DSPs.

IIRC the MDAC2 is limited to 2 channels. You would need an FDAC with DIC DAC and/or slave(s).

 

[fusion5]

MDAC2 with "Dacapo Anniversary" Discrete DAC + FPGA Modulator

FDAC based on MDAC2 with "Dacapo Anniversary" Discrete DAC + FPGA Modulator and Tube output stage.

John,

Will the FPGA allow for digital inputs like S/PDIF and such on the Discrete DAC design?

 

[anjora]

Are you by any chance confusing sample rate and the tweeters frequency response?

No i wasn't, i use S/s do denote the sampling rate. At 768KS/s you need decent performance up to 300 khz to utilize it(requires eq).

I very much doubt that the MDAC2 will bring the processing power required for FIR filters. Sounds more like a task for the FDAC's DSPs.

IIRC the MDAC2 is limited to 2 channels. You would need an FDAC with DIC DAC and/or slave(s).

I was planning to go for fdac+slave but it seams it will take a long time before that would be delivered, if ever. I guess the rational thing is to get the ess version of mdac2 and gamble with fdac(potentially losing 300£), allowing me to potentially use mdac2 as slave to get 4 channels.

Another option is of course trying to get out completely by selling the pledge but currently i do not know about any good alternative, of course i can continue to use my asus xonar STX but it is linited to one of my computers.

 

[sq225917]

Why would anyone want pcm rates over 384kHz, no recorded material exists...

As for 100kHz capable tweeters, wtf for? You can't hear over 20K.

 

[ti33er]

Why would anyone want pcm rates over 384kHz, no recorded material exists...

As for 100kHz capable tweeters, wtf for? You can't hear over 20K.

lol I can't hear above 16khz and neither can my Wife, nor even my young daughter (so far)!

 

[anjora]

Of course 384KS/s is overkill, 96/16 is more than enough for music. From my experience the difficulty of hearing any difference in blind tests increases exponentially with the sampling rate.

I have done some more thinking, fdac+slave would only offer me 4 channels and i want 16 so i want just the ess 9028 (why not 9038?) version of the mdac2, having a high quality portable dac and adc is nice.

I will have to look at other solutions such as emotiva xmc-1 (not ideal either).

 

[fred sonnen]

Every moth a new great idea ;-) In generally I love it. But keep the overview is not that easy....
We discussed it some time here, isn't it possible to setup a MDAC2 / FDAC Website?
What can be taken where?
What builds on this?
How to run upgrade paths?
What are the costs?
ectr. ectr.

 

[Ian M]

Every moth a new great idea ;-) In generally I love it. But keep the overview is not that easy....
We discussed it some time here, isn't it possible to setup a MDAC2 / FDAC Website?
What can be taken where?
What builds on this?
How to run upgrade paths?
What are the costs?
ectr. ectr.

Agreed. This should have been done years ago. A monthly email would have been good enough. As it is now this thread has become far too complicated to follow. I've more or less decided to ignore everything and wait and see if the FDAC happens or not, but I suspect it will turn out too expensive. With the cost of salvaged MDAC just for the sleeve and all the extras even the cost of the MDAC2 seems to be approaching 2000 pounds now. I think I'd rather buy some new speakers

 

[Rune]

I think I'd rather buy some new speakers

Speakers usually make the biggest difference/change, but also has the risk of a new upgrade cycle. So be prepared to spend ££££

 

[anjora]

Agreed. This should have been done years ago. A monthly email would have been good enough. As it is now this thread has become far too complicated to follow. I've more or less decided to ignore everything and wait and see if the FDAC happens or not, but I suspect it will turn out too expensive. With the cost of salvaged MDAC just for the sleeve and all the extras even the cost of the MDAC2 seems to be approaching 2000 pounds now. I think I'd rather buy some new speakers

I have 'invested' a total of 1700$ into two crowdfunding projects and i have not recieved anything yet. I paid a total of 1170£ for this project i think and i cannot really justify continued spending.

The amount of money i am risking is causing me emotional problems too and for what? this project isn't really moving in a direction i want anyway. If i get a dac this year without having to pay even more money i would be happy with that but if i am asked to pay another 250£ to possibly get a dac in 2018 i rather just get my money back.

BTW: you can build pretty good speakers for 2000£, i am looking at some designs to build and possibly sell aswell(i have though about starting my own business for a long time).

My new plan
-ess sabre version of mdac2.
-wait for a suitable prepro(outlaw, emotiva, anthem are interesting companies) or
-buy used 7.2 processor cheap.

I think i will settle for only passive filters for my next speaker system, digital XO is not really worth it.

 

[JemHayward]

lol I can't hear above 16khz and neither can my Wife, nor even my young daughter (so far)!

16k?? 16k?? I dream of 16k, not heard anything above 12k for years, but I did also grow up in a cardboard box in the middle of the road...

 

[Vinz]

I wonder what's gonna happen with the FDAC. I'm not even sure if the prices from lakewest.com are relevant anymore. There was some talk about adding tubes. Will this be optional and how much would it cost?

By the way, I can't hear much above 13khz nowadays.

 

[anjora]

I am considering selling my pledge, i would take a bid above 1700$, i paid 6x dev fees, slave unit, salvages silver unit. I rather invest money in something else that offers better potential ROI and also the ability to sell when i want.

I am rarily listening to music now. If i get an mdac2/fdac it would be mostly for professional use.

Why would anyone want pcm rates over 384kHz, no recorded material exists...

As for 100kHz capable tweeters, wtf for? You can't hear over 20K.

Simply to rationalize spending 1500$ on a 2-channel dac without DSP.

The sabre version of the mdac2 offers good performance for the price but the streamer and front panes upgrade does not offer good value for money imo. I would be willing to pay money to get vishey transistors though, i might aswell aim go for full HIFI insanity if i get this dac.