Brexit: a re-vote

[Tony L]

Time was when you couldn't get a decorator to come to the house for less than £250 a day. A decorator. No training required, no certification, just a van, paint and a brush.

So basically they created the situation themselves by overpricing their services to an absurd extent! The Harry Enfield ‘Loadsamoney’ character has a lot of truth to it and as a punter I’d far prefer not to be ripped off. I guess in some respects it echoes the over-militance of the unions ushering in Thatcher. I’m a believer both in the market and in regulation/fair employment, tip things too far either way and things tend to go very wrong.

 

[richardg]

Depends on the agent I imagine. You'd prob need 6 months of bank statements to show regular income.

Got all of that and much more but being in English, they reject it. And I'm not sure I or my agent would. I have 5 rental properties in Hull

 

[richardg]

Ah, stop moaning. You are in Alsace for God’s sake! Just get on the train to Colmar and right opposite the station you will find the Brasserie l’Auberge. What I wouldn’t give to be there right now (every night, in fact...)

(‘smiley face’, in case you take offence)

I'll try that when my family comes over in Feb, we are staying in between there and La Bresse for some skiing etc

 

[richardg]

This decorating argument hits a nerve with me. I got a house painted white to to bottom and all woodwork in Hull for 250 quid last year. I asked the agent to paint my small warehouse (smaller than the house) in Germany. He said his son would do it cheap for me. Cool I thought....900 Euros.

QED, Steve67.

And in further news, the Moroccan med student I am meeting on Saturday with a view to moving in with on a sublet has just text this to me: 'I hope you're not gay lol...'

 

[richardg]

So basically they created the situation themselves by overpricing their services to an absurd extent! The Harry Enfield ‘Loadsamoney’ character has a lot of truth to it and as a punter I’d far prefer not to be ripped off. I guess in some respects it echoes the over-militance of the unions ushering in Thatcher. I’m a believer both in the market and in regulation/fair employment, tip things too far either way and things tend to go very wrong.

I think you lose this one. His 250 a day thing is extreme, particularly for the north, so gives you a chink that you don't deserve. Market rates are market rates and so why wouldn't they charge what they can get at the time? And I don't think many decorators have been swanning off on early retirement into the sunset in a posh car. So a ripoff industry I think not, at least in the decorator segment of the building trade.

The prices in the trade have come down and it is because of immigration. I don't know and I don't care if that is a good thing or a bad thing. I hate restriction of movement worldwide. It has pissed me off in the past and is pissing me off now, trying to get a flat here.

 

[vuk]

And yet study, after study and all academic research says that either is not true or else massively overstated.

matthew.

not questioning the research, just curious how they are measuring this. over here, almost all construction and most renovation is carried out by so-called "contractors" (some large, some small). a decrease in labour cost doesn't necessarily translate into cheaper rates -- a lot of this can be eaten up by higher profits. measuring wages vs. prices will give different results.

btw -- to add to the wealth of anecdotal evidence being presented here, most of my neighbours don't own basic tools like screw-drivers and rate the complexity of any home reno labour as being of similar to computer programming (or whatever else they don't understand at all), so this particular worker class (at least in large cities like toronto) is doing extremely well. if you are OK hiring a latino/chinese immigrant directly (or on the side), the cost can down to 1/10th -- i have done this on a couple of occasions BUT not exploited the person: paid considerably more than they were asking (while being told by some friends i was a fool).

 

[Seanm]

So basically they created the situation themselves by overpricing their services to an absurd extent! The Harry Enfield ‘Loadsamoney’ character has a lot of truth to it and as a punter I’d far prefer not to be ripped off. I guess in some respects it echoes the over-militance of the unions ushering in Thatcher. I’m a believer both in the market and in regulation/fair employment, tip things too far either way and things tend to go very wrong.

It's an anecdote, feeding a fairy tale, like the fairy tale about unions giving us Thatcher. Steve's story tells us about the exploitative practices of owners and managers, it doesn't tell us anything about the effects of immigration on wages. Where there is free movement they will find a way to exploit that, by, e.g. using cultural differences to divide workers, or using migrants dependence on each other to instil discipline. Where the movement of labour is illicit, they will use that, e.g. by exploiting the greater vulnerability of illegal migrants, or using the threat of falling productivity to freeze wages.

 

[Marchbanks]

I have 5 rental properties in Hull

I have to say if I owned five rental properties I would be enjoying the proceeds in Alsace by endlessly touring the wine villages rather than sleeping in a warehouse - but then drive and ambition never were my strong points!

 

[richardg]

I'm old, not very gifted and skint.

And on wine...Alsation wine is a bit thin and erm...not sure, just don't really like it yet..but I find the French beers here excellent, there does not seem to be much beer / life / culture / anything on the German side, oddly. Just the black forest, which is cooler / more eery than Les Vosges.

 

[TheDecameron]

And in further news, the Moroccan med student I am meeting on Saturday with a view to moving in with on a sublet has just text this to me: 'I hope you're not gay lol...'

Don't do it Rich, I've got a bad feeling about this one- you could end up in bin bags.

 

[Seeker_UK]

I got a house painted white to to bottom and all woodwork in Hull for 250 quid last year.

Cash in hand?

 

[richardg]

Cash in hand?

yes indeed

 

[richardg]

Don't do it Rich, I've got a bad feeling about this one- you could end up in bin bags.

The plot has since thickened. Contact name on facebook is Don.....then Don follows up with 'I'm a girl, you know'.

So many questions now, Dec......

 

[Cav]

Yes, we have, because after 6 months in the place the Poles are better workers than you'll ever be. I see it time and again. I disagree with the unskilled Brits voting the way they have, but I know why they did.

Just to try to answer a suggestion above, were the Poles paid a lower basic wage than UK nationals?

 

[Marchbanks]

I'm old, not very gifted and skint.

Pull the other one...

Alsation wine is a bit thin

Go to a decent wine bar, have a glass of Gewürztraminer vendage tardive, then come back and say that again!

 

[richardg]

if that's a pudding wine, it will be spat out!

 

[Marchbanks]

Well, I’m not a pudding man (only physically) but I recommend trying it with some Munster.

 

[stevec67]

Because you exploited the situation? As you will exploit the situation post-Brexit.

Who's being exploited? We hire people to work in a factory. We make food. Its not bloody rocket science. If they stay, they stay. If they leave, they get replaced. Over time we fill the factory with stayers. Some of the stayers are smarter than the others. Have a guess who gets the team leader's job when if comes up. Is this exploitation? What else are we to do? Employ one of the knobheads who didn't turn up last week because he had a hangover and it was all a bit too fcking hard? Course we will. So give over with the exploitation bollocks because we will employ anyone who will do the job. The best become supervisors and managers, I don't care where they come from provided they are legal. I just get the job done and the food on the lorries, and I am scrupulous with fair dealings for all. This includes promoting the smart ones and firing the ones who can't get out of bed two days running. I have managers and supervisors from Romania, Hungary, Middlesboro and Darlington. They aren't exploited any more than I am and everyone on site who can get his lazy arse out of bed and do a decent day's work has a fair shot at those jobs when they come up.

 

[stevec67]

Just to try to answer a suggestion above, were the Poles paid a lower basic wage than UK nationals?

Of course not. All employees get the same rate for the same job.

 

[Seanm]

Who's being exploited? We hire people to work in a factory. We make food. Its not bloody rocket science. If they stay, they stay. If they leave, they get replaced. Over time we fill the factory with stayers. Some of the stayers are smarter than the others. Have a guess who gets the team leader's job when if comes up. Is this exploitation? What else are we to do? Employ one of the knobheads who didn't turn up last week because he had a hangover and it was all a bit too fcking hard? Course we will. So give over with the exploitation bollocks because we will employ anyone who will do the job. The best become supervisors and managers, I don't care where they come from provided they are legal. I just get the job done and the food on the lorries, and I am scrupulous with fair dealings for all. This includes promoting the smart ones and firing the ones who can't get out of bed two days running. I have managers and supervisors from Romania, Hungary, Middlesboro and Darlington. They aren't exploited any more than I am and everyone on site who can get his lazy arse out of bed and do a decent day's work has a fair shot at those jobs when they come up.

Apologies, shouldn’t have made it sound so personal – it’s just you made it sound so impersonal: you’ve "seen it happen," as if you were a bystander.

What else are you to do? Well you really don’t have much room for manoeuvre. You do what everyone else does: you favour those who are highly trained, but cost the same; who have left their life behind in order to work and so are by definition highly motivated to work; who will put up with sh*t work because they see a life beyond it. You would have to be mad, and would soon go broke, adjusting the labour process to make the work less sh*t, or compensating adequately for the sh*tness.

And when the borders close, you will be mad not to say: productivity is down – we can’t afford all this red tape, and we certainly can’t entertain these calls for unionisation. You will be mad not to say: in this uncertain climate, we need to freeze the minimum wage – maybe even think about suspending it?

I really believe that there isn’t much else you can do. That is the nature of capitalism at this late stage. But you can at least stop calling your workers lazy knobheads and talking about human beings as if they were pieces of expendable machinery.