Brexit: a re-vote

[vuk]

Impossible to say.

As things stand I think it's more likely than not we will leave the EU. I also think it's more likely than not our departure will be a drawn out affair and that the end result will look quite similar to EU membership (i.e. we will remain in the Single Market and/or Customs Union) but on less favourable terms. Essentially most politicians are in the oh-so-British mindset that we must make the best of a bad job because of the will of the people thing.

Frankly it's a pain in the a*se. In Labour's Corbyn, the electorate ha its best chance for decades to genuinely improve prospects for the many not the few. But the EU debate is confounding everything and is a massive distraction from the real issues that have led to the impoverishment of so many.

OK, so i am not crazy. that's a nicely-articulated account and consistent with the vague impressions i've formed from what i've been reading.

one of the odd things that struck me in the early going just before and after the vote was how many or most of the brexiters were believere in globalism -- this is why i asked a few weeks ago if there was a camp making an "isolationist" case: that's the only case that seems to make any logical sense. what a depressing mess this is.

 

[richardg]

Rich that sounds like someone who's had difficulty with authority who's speaking . The tabloid readership laps it up- "takin' back control/ no one's gonna tell us what to do anymore/ I'll have my cucumbers any shape I like. Its the Vicky Pollard position,

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/ImwBwxo

Afraid I have. All my life. Expelled from 2 schools and it went downhill from there. I'm not proud of it. But every time I look I don't think authority has much to be proud of either.

 

[TheDecameron]

Davis admits he's thick-

Mr Davis told LBC radio that intelligence was not the principal requirement of his position leading the Brexit negotiations. "I do just have to be calm," he said, adding that when the agreement fell apart on Monday he had come close to losing his cool.

"What's the requirement of my job? I don't have to be very clever, I don't have to know that much, I do just have to be calm," he said. "And that did test the calmness a bit, a little bit.
-Independent, 11 Dec

Explains quite a lot.

 

[Marchbanks]

Impossible to say.

As things stand I think it's more likely than not we will leave the EU. I also think it's more likely than not our departure will be a drawn out affair and that the end result will look quite similar to EU membership (i.e. we will remain in the Single Market and/or Customs Union) but on less favourable terms. Essentially most politicians are in the oh-so-British mindset that we must make the best of a bad job because of the will of the people thing.

That’s pretty much my personal view too, but I wouldn’t be suprised if it turns out to be miles off. I would add that politicians of all parties are making a big thing about sticking to Will O’The People not through any sense of British fair play - they couldn’t give a toss - but because they are terrified by the thought of a UKIP resurgence wiping them out at the next election if they defy it. Which is of course what got us to this point in the first place.

 

[richardg]

Nobody dare even mention a re-vote except Lib-Dem, who are as weak as I ever remember them being.

I'd approve of one.

 

[Marchbanks]

I suspect the Lib Dems feel their share of the vote would hold up even if there were a UKIP resurgence. And I suspect they are correct.

 

[Tony L]

one of the odd things that struck me in the early going just before and after the vote was how many or most of the brexiters were believere in globalism -- this is why i asked a few weeks ago if there was a camp making an "isolationist" case: that's the only case that seems to make any logical sense. what a depressing mess this is.

Brexiters look to come in several different flavours. I suspect the very wealthy elite who deliberately and cynically created the mess (Farage, Rees-Mogg, Banks, Hannon, Murdoch, Dacre, Barclay Bros etc) want it as they are playing the financial markets, want shut of the ECJ, human rights, workers rights legislation etc etc so they can get third-world like productivity from those below. The semi or low-skill manual labourers and unemployed in the northern Labour seats have to my mind been conned by this category into the scapegoating and blaming of higher skilled and more employable immigrants as to their plight along with all the nationalism, racism and protectionism that accompanies it. They have unquestionably voted against their interests. It saddens me hugely as these are the folk who will pay the dearest with their jobs and employment rights if the right of the Tory party ascends post-Brexit. There are a few others such as Richgilb who seem perfectly happy to vote against the national interest merely to hinder personal businesses competitors whilst living and working in the EU themselves! I’ve yet to find a single coherent pro-Brexit argument, they all crumble to dust at the slightest analysis.

 

[Tony L]

I suspect the Lib Dems feel their share of the vote would hold up even if there were a UKIP resurgence. And I suspect they are correct.

The Lib Dems have, rather wisely IMO, placed their flag in the sand and are simply waiting for public opinion to change. My belief at this point is they are correct and this strategy will eventually pay off for them.

 

[Marchbanks]

The Lib Dems... are simply waiting for public opinion to change.

Great idea, but I won’t be holding my breath.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Great idea, but I won’t be holding my breath.

To be fair, they've been waiting since 1915 or thereabouts, so I doubt if they're holding their breath, either.

 

[richardg]

Brexiters look to come in several different flavours. I suspect the very wealthy elite who deliberately and cynically created the mess (Farage, Rees-Mogg, Banks, Hannon, Murdoch, Dacre, Barclay Bros etc) want it as they are playing the financial markets, want shut of the ECJ, human rights, workers rights legislation etc etc so they can get third-world like productivity from those below. The semi or low-skill manual labourers and unemployed in the northern Labour seats have to my mind been conned by this category into the scapegoating and blaming of higher skilled and more employable immigrants as to their plight along with all the nationalism, racism and protectionism that accompanies it. They have unquestionably voted against their interests. It saddens me hugely as these are the folk who will pay the dearest with their jobs and employment rights if the right of the Tory party ascends post-Brexit. There are a few others such as Richgilb who seem perfectly happy to vote against the national interest merely to hinder personal businesses competitors whilst living and working in the EU themselves! I’ve yet to find a single coherent pro-Brexit argument, they all crumble to dust at the slightest analysis.

Nobody ever said I was normal!

And the bloody French won't let me have an apartment. Still living in my warehouse, as I don't have pay slips blah blah blah.

 

[stevec67]

Nobody ever said I was normal!

And the bloody French won't let me have an apartment. Still living in my warehouse, as I don't have pay slips blah blah blah.

You wouldn't get a flat in the UK either without payslips or an employment statement, so it's hardly the French. I know, I've been in exactly this position in the UK. I had to pay 6 months' rent up front, which fortunately I had.

 

[richardg]

That's where I'm heading with it, 6 months up front, one has asked for a year but she can get lost. Either that or a sublet room in a house until I get sorted.

So in UK, the self-employment statement (which I have an SA302) also does not count?

 

[Marchbanks]

Nobody ever said I was normal!

And the bloody French won't let me have an apartment. Still living in my warehouse, as I don't have pay slips blah blah blah.

Ah, stop moaning. You are in Alsace for God’s sake! Just get on the train to Colmar and right opposite the station you will find the Brasserie l’Auberge. What I wouldn’t give to be there right now (every night, in fact...)

(‘smiley face’, in case you take offence)

 

[palacefan]

Very few politicians make a mark. Wedgie was over burdened with his principles but he was reckoned by some people to be an excellent postmaster general.

 

[stevec67]

Brexiters look to come in several different flavours. I suspect the very wealthy elite... want it as they are playing the financial markets (etc). The semi or low-skill manual labourers and unemployed in the northern Labour seats have to my mind been conned by this category into the scapegoating and blaming of higher skilled and more employable immigrants as to their plight along with all the nationalism, racism and protectionism that accompanies it. They have unquestionably voted against their interests. .

With all due respect tony, you're being naive. The artisan class and to a lesser extent the unskilled are the ones who have definitely lost out to highly skilled immigrants. Ask a builder. Any builder, brickie, spark, plumber, they will all say the same, to a man. They will say that the E Euros came in and worked for less. And it's true. Rates have plunged in building. It started in the mid-noughties, the 2007-8 housing crash made it worse, it continues to this day. Time was when you couldn't get a decorator to come to the house for less than £250 a day. A decorator. No training required, no certification, just a van, paint and a brush. Skilled trades were more again. These days you can get a painter for half that, the difference is that he's called Wojciech or Przemek. A similar thing applies in the factories where I work, the Poles are great. They don't work for less but they turn up. Today, tomorrrow, and next week. Even if they have been on the pop they crawl in, they look like death but they are there. Try getting a UK manual worker to do that. You hire 10 on Monday, 2 tell the supervisor to FO and walk before lunchtime, 2 more don't show on Tuesday, 1 more down on Wednesday, meanwhile Stanislaw, Eva and Evaldes turn up on time, do what's required, leave on time, and show up on Monday to do it all again. 6 months on the Poles are still there, and the Brits you hire are complaining that "place is full of foreigners, can't understand owt they say, given all the best jobs to Poles". Yes, we have, because after 6 months in the place the Poles are better workers than you'll ever be. I see it time and again. I disagree with the unskilled Brits voting the way they have, but I know why they did.

 

[stevec67]

That's where I'm heading with it, 6 months up front, one has asked for a year but she can get lost. Either that or a sublet room in a house until I get sorted.

So in UK, the self-employment statement (which I have an SA302) also does not count?

Depends on the agent I imagine. You'd prob need 6 months of bank statements to show regular income.

 

[NeilR]

The Polish people in my team are without doubt the most productive workers.

 

[Seanm]

6 months on the Poles are still there, and the Brits you hire are complaining that "place is full of foreigners, can't understand owt they say, given all the best jobs to Poles". Yes, we have, because after 6 months in the place the Poles are better workers than you'll ever be. I see it time and again. I disagree with the unskilled Brits voting the way they have, but I know why they did.

Because you exploited the situation? As you will exploit the situation post-Brexit.

 

[matthewr]

With all due respect tony, you're being naive. The artisan class and to a lesser extent the unskilled are the ones who have definitely lost out to highly skilled immigrants. Ask a builder. Any builder, brickie, spark, plumber, they will all say the same, to a man. They will say that the E Euros came in and worked for less. And it's true. Rates have plunged in building.

And yet study, after study and all academic research says that either is not true or else massively overstated.