Epos ES14 (MK1) equal or better out there?
- Thread starter graeme h
- Start date
CD here - played on a Karik/Numerik
Ruby Baby is a great song, but have a good listen to New Frontier (the intro & outro in particular) and Nightfly - crank it up a bit and see how well you can follow the bass lines. There should be real body in those low notes, yet still you should clearly hear every bass note without having to consciously listen, if you see what I mean.
I've no idea what S600s sound like, or many of the latest and greatest new speakers for that matter as I hardly go near a hi-fi shop these days. The last speakers I heard that could match my 401s in the bass were James' Ergo-IIIs (a little better in fact), and a pair of Mezzo Utopia's - they were great too.
Mr Tibbs
BenS
pfm Member
I own a pair of ES 14 mk2 and for the money they are very good speakers, however, I think that they are pretty limited in what they can do. At they moment they live in my second system and I have a pair of IMF RSPM mk vi in my main system (MacBook pro, audirvana, young DAC, Avondale power supply, Bent Audio reference TVC, Plinius SA100 class A power amp).
I recently had the crossovers in the IMFs updated and ran the ES 14s in the main system while the IMFs were out of action. As you can imagine they sound quite different... In some ways, and at first, I thought they sounded better than the IMFs - cleaner and more brightly lit in the mid, more focussed image. However, they sounded pretty anaemic in comparison to the IMF and obviously lacked a couple of octives at the bottom. As time went on though, I became more and more dissatisfied with them. I felt that I was getting only a fragment of the music, and that wasn't only to do with the lack of bass. I never felt like I was inside the music - it was as though the atmosphere had been stripped from the recording. I haven't looked back since my IMFs went back into action.
The two best speakers I have owned are Spendor S100 and the IMFs and perhaps it is unfair to compare them because either would have cost at least 5 times as much as the Es14. But in my system and to my ears either comprehensively wallop them. Es14 are good for what they are. they are by no means the ultimate speaker, they do somethings very well, but are too limited in my experience.
Ben
I recently had the crossovers in the IMFs updated and ran the ES 14s in the main system while the IMFs were out of action. As you can imagine they sound quite different... In some ways, and at first, I thought they sounded better than the IMFs - cleaner and more brightly lit in the mid, more focussed image. However, they sounded pretty anaemic in comparison to the IMF and obviously lacked a couple of octives at the bottom. As time went on though, I became more and more dissatisfied with them. I felt that I was getting only a fragment of the music, and that wasn't only to do with the lack of bass. I never felt like I was inside the music - it was as though the atmosphere had been stripped from the recording. I haven't looked back since my IMFs went back into action.
The two best speakers I have owned are Spendor S100 and the IMFs and perhaps it is unfair to compare them because either would have cost at least 5 times as much as the Es14. But in my system and to my ears either comprehensively wallop them. Es14 are good for what they are. they are by no means the ultimate speaker, they do somethings very well, but are too limited in my experience.
Ben
A comparison between speakers at such different price points is neither fair nor meaningful. Nobody, surely, would ever suggest that the ES14 is the ultimate speaker. Its one of the better mid-price products from the 80s and nothing more. A meaningful comparison would be between the ES14 and the equivalently priced Kef or B&W products of the period.
Ive said before in this forum, when the ES14 has been compared with more expensive products, that my wifes Mazda MX5 is nothing like as good as a Porsche Boxster. Id need to make the comparison between the MX5 and an Aston-Martin to give the equivalence of pitching an ES14 against an IMF RSPM.
BenS
pfm Member
I completely agree with you! But there are quite a few people who seem to be saying that they can't find better than the es14, even with a large budget, say £2000. I find the RSPM mk vi to be several leagues ahead of the es14, but for £2000 and a bit of patience you could get some IMF SACM which would be like comparing an MX5 to a Ferrari Enzo!
It isn't that hard to better the es14 for relatively normal money.
Ben
Agree with BenS - particularly the bit about becoming more and more dissatisfied with ES14s over time, only in my case it was a long and lingering dissatisfaction lasting years.
I'm not sure adding a sub is the complete answer either. My take would be to have a listen to some really good three-way speakers where the full range capability is properly integrated into the design. In particular I'd narrow my list of possibles by looking at those designs that prioritise the importance of the midrange. My own 401s cross at 475Hz and 5000Hz so all of the critical midband is handled by one driver and I feel this is hugely important in making them sound cohesive - an area where three way designs can be found wanting.
Don't get hung up on the fact that some of these speakers have (necessarily) complex design - particularly the passive crossovers in them. The ES14 has a crossover too, you just can't see it because it's designed into the drivers. It is I think rather more important where the crossover points are, than how they are achieved.
Mr Tibbs
I'm not sure adding a sub is the complete answer either. My take would be to have a listen to some really good three-way speakers where the full range capability is properly integrated into the design. In particular I'd narrow my list of possibles by looking at those designs that prioritise the importance of the midrange. My own 401s cross at 475Hz and 5000Hz so all of the critical midband is handled by one driver and I feel this is hugely important in making them sound cohesive - an area where three way designs can be found wanting.
Don't get hung up on the fact that some of these speakers have (necessarily) complex design - particularly the passive crossovers in them. The ES14 has a crossover too, you just can't see it because it's designed into the drivers. It is I think rather more important where the crossover points are, than how they are achieved.
Mr Tibbs
Fully agree. The OP has a very expensive system and should therefore start looking at some expensive speakers. I'm sure it wouldn't be long before he found one that wiped the floor with his 14s in all departments.
Mr Tibbs
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
Hello Mr Tibbs,
The midband, known as the second decade, spans 200Hz to 2kHz. The human voice covers 80Hz fundamental to around 3.5kHz with harmonics. This is why a good two-way system, where the midwoofer reaches up to 2 or 3kHz, can offer better coherence than a good three-way. Of course, such two-ways systems cannot hope to carry off the bass stunts of a large three-way.
My E-X has an active LF/MF cross at 150Hz. I guess I could easily shift the cross to 80Hz and see what effect that achieves at some stage when I feel an urge to experiment.
Have you implemented the E-IIIR mods yet? If you think the standard version is good, you'll be gob-smacked with the "R".
Merry Christmas to you and all in funkytown.
James
graeme h
pfm Member
Well, I bought some 'expensive' 'speakers a year ago and, for various reasons, sold them to put cash into a pressing domestic project thinking I could 'slum it' with some old ES14's temporarily.......but......As I say I'm very pleased. My only concern is knowing that out there there is a modern alternative as good or better for sensible money should the drivers go.
No one has suggested anything yet for circa £2k new. A few £4k recommendations and £5k comparisons. I should also say DIY is not my thing...!
Sound of dead horse being well flogged..........Merry Christmas! G
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
I have heard lots of speakers in lots of systems and to date none have made me want to change the ES14s. I do hanker after some SBLs though. I think they might tick all the boxes for me!
NB. Not saying ES14s are the best speaker in the world just the best I have heard.
NB. Not saying ES14s are the best speaker in the world just the best I have heard.
graeme h
pfm Member
The 1970's cocktail cabinet factor rules our SBL's for me! G
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
graeme h;1551896 No one has suggested anything yet for circa £2k new. A few £4k recommendations and £5k comparisons. I should also say DIY is not my thing...! G[/QUOTE said:Hmmm thought I had, try the new PMC 20 series, spin off from the FACT8 which has one of the best mid range and vocal quality I've heard.... Hence I bought themTransmision line design will also give good bass.
Robert
Tapehead
All loudspeakers are pretty poor compared to live sound and technically pretty atrocious compared to good electronics. We just have variations of what poor looks like.
This is because they are by far the weakest link in the chain - certainly where the source is digital and often where it is analogue (LP).
So discussions about 'the best' loudspeaker don't really go anywhere useful and are little different to the other circular discussions we see.
All you can do is pick the balance of +/- that you prefer since nothing, given current technology and the the inherent difficulties of room integration will deliver perfection on a reasonable wide range of music genres - not even close.
I happen to like ESLs a lot because the good points are particularly attractive to me, however I also like what big ATC and PMC actives can do but the balance of vice and virtue is completely different. To some extent the choice must be dictated by your choice of music and how you listen. Small scale classical or jazz listened too in the near field at low SPLs has a fundamentally different set of requirements to drum n bass filling a large open plan house at realistic SPLs, and all of the shades in between. And by 'shades' I don't just mean listening levels and the acoustic space to be filled.
You might crave the best reproduction of voice that you can achieve and that might be the primary criteria in your choice of loudspeaker. This automatically rules out a vast number of contenders. Or you might crave maximum impact and excitement from percussion and that might be the driver for you music collection. This also rules out many potential candidates and you are unlikely to end up with the same model as those looking for the best voice reproduction.
You might like reggae/dub and like it loud - ushers in a while new set of requirements to maximise your enjoyment.
None of that is to say that many loudspeakers cannot do a reasonable job across the board, because many can and I'd include the ES14 & ES11 in that group. Where I might differ from what is perhaps the norm is in stating that you can, to some degree, bend the performance of a decent all-rounder by manipulating the signal you feed it. Loudpeaker preference often boils down to balance and while there are certain fixed qualities inherent to any design, you can adapt the loudspeaker to your personal preference in much the same way that the studio balance engineer would have done. I realise this doesn't often meet with approval in the audiophile world, but you can for example make a distant sounding loudspeaker sound more forward, one that sounds rather shut-in and dull sound more open and sparkling, one sounding a little slow and leaden more agile, and on it goes.
Doing this requires that you abandon what is to me the daft idea that you take delivery of your brand new expensive loudspeakers and accept that the performance available is fixed, when it clearly isn't. The designer has hopefully got the essentials right (as right as they can be) but the performance has been tuned either to his preference or to some notional market preference.
You don't have to accept that, and many a potentially good loudspeaker is damned because the owner considers it's performance to be immovable.
So make 2012 the year for experiment & tear-up the audiophile manual.
This is because they are by far the weakest link in the chain - certainly where the source is digital and often where it is analogue (LP).
So discussions about 'the best' loudspeaker don't really go anywhere useful and are little different to the other circular discussions we see.
All you can do is pick the balance of +/- that you prefer since nothing, given current technology and the the inherent difficulties of room integration will deliver perfection on a reasonable wide range of music genres - not even close.
I happen to like ESLs a lot because the good points are particularly attractive to me, however I also like what big ATC and PMC actives can do but the balance of vice and virtue is completely different. To some extent the choice must be dictated by your choice of music and how you listen. Small scale classical or jazz listened too in the near field at low SPLs has a fundamentally different set of requirements to drum n bass filling a large open plan house at realistic SPLs, and all of the shades in between. And by 'shades' I don't just mean listening levels and the acoustic space to be filled.
You might crave the best reproduction of voice that you can achieve and that might be the primary criteria in your choice of loudspeaker. This automatically rules out a vast number of contenders. Or you might crave maximum impact and excitement from percussion and that might be the driver for you music collection. This also rules out many potential candidates and you are unlikely to end up with the same model as those looking for the best voice reproduction.
You might like reggae/dub and like it loud - ushers in a while new set of requirements to maximise your enjoyment.
None of that is to say that many loudspeakers cannot do a reasonable job across the board, because many can and I'd include the ES14 & ES11 in that group. Where I might differ from what is perhaps the norm is in stating that you can, to some degree, bend the performance of a decent all-rounder by manipulating the signal you feed it. Loudpeaker preference often boils down to balance and while there are certain fixed qualities inherent to any design, you can adapt the loudspeaker to your personal preference in much the same way that the studio balance engineer would have done. I realise this doesn't often meet with approval in the audiophile world, but you can for example make a distant sounding loudspeaker sound more forward, one that sounds rather shut-in and dull sound more open and sparkling, one sounding a little slow and leaden more agile, and on it goes.
Doing this requires that you abandon what is to me the daft idea that you take delivery of your brand new expensive loudspeakers and accept that the performance available is fixed, when it clearly isn't. The designer has hopefully got the essentials right (as right as they can be) but the performance has been tuned either to his preference or to some notional market preference.
You don't have to accept that, and many a potentially good loudspeaker is damned because the owner considers it's performance to be immovable.
So make 2012 the year for experiment & tear-up the audiophile manual.
graeme h
pfm Member
Hmmm thought I had, try the new PMC 20 series, spin off from the FACT8 which has one of the best mid range and vocal quality I've heard.... Hence I bought them
You are right. I've had TB2, FB1 and AB2 and always thought they lacked snap and bounce....a bit slowwww. Maybe they need muscle amps to really get them going. The FB1 did not produce as good a bass as im getting now and the alu dome not well integrated.
Newer models may be better of course. G
Hi James,
Who said the midrange is 200Hz - 2kHz and why?
I think the upper crossing may be much more critical the the lower and therefore better placed an octave higher than 2kHz. The ear is very sensitive to what's happening at 2kHz and there is a wealth of musical information around that point. This is why I think the Gale 401s sound so good and can equal (or better at higher volume/more complex music) ES14 in the midrange, but with bass performance way better than the two-way 14. I'm sure there must be some modern equivalent out there that the OP can try, but he needs to be prepared to spend the time and money to find it.
Anyway, best wishes to you and yours this Christmas. Quincy and I will be partaking of a Guinness or three, spinning a few tunes and no doubt reminiscing old times at some point over the break!
Mr Tibbs