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why Corbyn may well win the next election.

droodzilla said:
The truth is that any party opposing article 50 eighteen months ago would have been signing its political death warrant. I suspect the Conservatives would have an increased majority now had Labour chosen that path, and that the prospects for reversing or ameliorating Brexit would be a lot worse.
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You're right, much though I would have preferred Labour to stick with the pro-Remain stance they had before the Referendum.

Jack
 
This is quite good on the state of the Labour Party:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-antisemitism-election-momentum-a8528811.html

It contains one of the few accurate descriptions of Momentum I've read or heard in the news:
What Momentum has correctly identified is that people who want to be involved in politics don’t necessarily want to be involved in the minutiae of local party organisation, the procedural stuff. And also, people don’t necessarily find that their local party is the place for them.

“Manchester Momentum puts on a disco every month,” Ms Parker says. “Bristol Momentum meetings have campaign stalls from every kind of campaign group right across the city. You do not get that from a local Labour Party meeting. We are a bridge to something beyond the party.
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HARD LEFT THUGS IN DISCO HORROR!!!

But fear not, Corbyn haterzzz there are some choice quotes from an anonymous anti-Corbyn MP:
All this ‘kinder, gentler politics’ stuff. This ‘I’m comfortable with a little dissent’? He’s not. He’s profoundly intolerant, bad tempered, and not used to having to work very hard. When he does these petulant interviews it’s because he’s knackered. He used to wing by parliament once a month to raise the issue of Venezuela then fly out there as a guest.
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Although I'm not sure this particular anonymous source is entitled to moan about the lack of a "kinder, gentler politics" when he talks about ordinary members like this:
Suddenly, a guy from [the trade union] Aslef turned up at my meetings to make long, angry, shouty speeches about parts of the world he’d never visited. He didn’t look like he’d ever even been on a train let alone driven one. These sorts of people took over. When you see the pictures of these people, at these meetings at the moment, they look unpleasant. There are profound mental health problems in those rooms, and they are changing the party.
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which has more than a whiff of "socialists who can't bear the smell of the working class" about it.
 
Yes, the anonymous poster does have the whiff of a 'Wigan Pier Socialist'. Also telling that it's all about appearance. 'He didn’t look like he’d ever even been on a train let alone driven one' , 'when you see the pictures of these people...' and 'they look unpleasant' No substance at all, just condemnation based on appearance. It's precisely this sort of prejudice a good socialist should be wary of.
 
jackbarron said:
Let's see what happens Tony. Corbyn must have been playing the long game.

From the moment he said Article 50 should be triggered immediately after the Referendum, I assumed he had a strategy. This was to let the Tories tear themselves apart over Brexit and Labour would get in. A Labour government would then do the most soft Brexit possible.

This might happen. Alternatively a People's Vote/2nd Referendum could take place and Brexit will be stopped.

We will find out more during Labour's Annual Conference later this month. Momentum have proposed a debate about a People's Vote/2nd Referendum. You know, the political group the Board of Deputies seem to think are antisemites.

Unite are also in favour of this. Corbyn is keeping shtum at the moment, apart from saying he will vote against a bad deal. The proposal put forward by Momentum/Unite will hopefully twist his arm.

Who's to say Corbyn hasn't had this in mind all along? One thing is for sure, he is doing a lot better than May, who is busy flushing the UK down the economic toilet in the name of her lackluster career.

Jack
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Yes. Corbyn shifted his stance on the Customs Union and Single Market when to public mood shifted in that direction. If the momentum for a second referendum continues to gather support, I'm sure we'll see Corbyn shift accordingly.
 
ks.234 said:
Yes. Corbyn shifted his stance on the Customs Union and Single Market when to public mood shifted in that direction. If the momentum for a second referendum continues to gather support, I'm sure we'll see Corbyn shift accordingly.
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By that token he’d have been a Thatcherite in the 80s. Leaders are meant to lead, not follow.
 
droodzilla said:
This is quite good on the state of the Labour Party:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-antisemitism-election-momentum-a8528811.html

It contains one of the few accurate descriptions of Momentum I've read or heard in the news:


HARD LEFT THUGS IN DISCO HORROR!!!

But fear not, Corbyn haterzzz there are some choice quotes from an anonymous anti-Corbyn MP:


Although I'm not sure this particular anonymous source is entitled to moan about the lack of a "kinder, gentler politics" when he talks about ordinary members like this:


which has more than a whiff of "socialists who can't bear the smell of the working class" about it.
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I particularly liked this bit. "Not only is his position as leader of the party both unassailable and entirely legitimate, but it would take no small amount of bravery to bet on anyone but Jeremy Corbyn emerging victorious whenever the UK gets around to having another general election."

Pretty much what I've been saying ad nauseum for a long time ;-)

But I'm a Neanderthal, so what would I know?
 
MVV said:
By that I take it you mean, you wish he would show his hand now so the right could get the boot in on the traitor ticket? Well tough shit.Tick-tock....
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No, what I meant was if he’s going to change his position to follow the public mood he’s not leading.
 
Stunsworth said:
No, what I meant was if he’s going to change his position to follow the public mood he’s not leading.
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This is baby land, it is a long game and a rare chance to really change this country into a much fairer place; the strategy has to be, first gain power.
I think when the GE gun goes you will see what you claim you want to see. Action now will just get in the way of that primary goal and divert attention away from the destruction of the Conservative Party.

It is not conclusive if it was Napoleon or Nelson who said "Never interfere with an enemy while he’s in the process of destroying himself." Whichever it was Corbyn is heeding that advice.
 
Stunsworth said:
No, what I meant was if he’s going to change his position to follow the public mood he’s not leading.
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Corbyn led the charge against austerity when almost every other politician was drifting further and further to the right.

But a good leader picks his battles and Corbyn has judged (correctly in my view) that opposing A50 a year ago would have been futile and self-destructive for the Labour Party.

But (perhaps) the ground is shifting so let's all enjoy the spectacle of the Conservative Party imploding and then see how Labour respond.

I dread to think where Labour would be if some of the political gurus here were in charge.
 
Any move towards a second vote has to be bottom up. We wouldn’t be seeing the shift there is now had the opposition party denigrated the result of the first. There are a lot of things involved in leadership. Right now they have to keep their nerve and let the Tories fulfill their destiny.
 
A very interesting generational map in the Evening Osborne a couple of days ago (link). It really highlights just how critical it is to get the 18-24s out and voting. They are unquestionably the key.

PS I’m really shocked and disappointed by how my generation has turned out. I don’t quite understand it as pretty much everyone I know is centre to left, and always has been since we were first able to vote! I’ve not shifted at all, not an inch; I’ve always been what I consider a social democrat / progressive / centre to moderate left, so think more about specific policy and political position rather than having any party loyalty. I’ve always been a floating voter between Lib and Lab (and Green if they were to stand in my seat). I can think of one long-standing friend that has shifted from left to (moderate) right, but that is it. The rest of us are still where we have always been.
 
Tony L said:
A very interesting generational map in the Evening Osborne a couple of days ago (link). It really highlights just how critical it is to get the 18-24s out and voting. They are unquestionably the key.
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Indeed they are the key? The opinion polls have probably failed to factor them in correctly. Momentum has been getting this group involved for some time. It wasn't quite enough to win the last election. It will be enough to win the next.
 
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