Avonessence
Hiking Consistency Rapporteur
What makes you think they are only in business based on performance alone?
Which component has the biggest effect on the sound?
- Thread starter dolfan
- Start date
What makes you think they are only in business based on performance alone?
Minstrel SE
These go to eleven
I still think the source first philosophy makes a lot of sense. See the Naim handbook given out to dealers 
For those on a tighter budget it made sense to get a desirable source component like an LP12 and compromise on the amp and speakers until a later date. Its not really an issue for the rich with Moon Audio installations.
Reasonable budget amps made that decision easier. Less to keep upgrading and they have pride of ownership in a source that can be partnered with several upgrades. They are all slaves to the source.
Whether you believe the hype about certain components is up to you.
As others have said its all in context of budget, component matching and the room. Speakers and amps do of course make quite a difference to the sound.
Crap in Crap out! Flat Earth till I die
For those on a tighter budget it made sense to get a desirable source component like an LP12 and compromise on the amp and speakers until a later date. Its not really an issue for the rich with Moon Audio installations.
Reasonable budget amps made that decision easier. Less to keep upgrading and they have pride of ownership in a source that can be partnered with several upgrades. They are all slaves to the source.
Whether you believe the hype about certain components is up to you.
As others have said its all in context of budget, component matching and the room. Speakers and amps do of course make quite a difference to the sound.
Crap in Crap out! Flat Earth till I die
Tony L
Administrator
I still think the source first philosophy makes a lot of sense. See the Naim handbook given out to dealers
For those on a tighter budget it made sense to get a desirable source component like an LP12 and compromise on the amp and speakers until a later date. Its not really an issue for the rich with Moon Audio installations.
It's just not that clear as to my mind one should always view the amp and speakers as an integrated system, exactly the same way one should view a deck, arm and cartridge. The amp has to be entirely in tune with the requirement of the speaker. This is especially true the further one steps from the typical two-way ported box speaker, e.g. a pair of Apogee Scintillas or Martin Logans need an entirely different type of amp to a pair of Altec 19 or Klipsch La Scalas. The former need huge high current models such as a Krell, Mark Levinson nature, the latter will give far better results with a little SET like a Decware Zen. In other words 'source first' has nothing to do with price at all, it is all about context and understanding interfaces.
I doubt that a single component can have the 'biggest effect'...in my system,which i consider to be well balanced none of the expensive boxes and cables etc were able to give me musical satisfaction until electricity supply issues were resolved.
In my location running a fairly expensive system, an ugly AC regenerator is king.
In my location running a fairly expensive system, an ugly AC regenerator is king.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Source first is appealing, logical especially when espoused most strongly by a maker of turntables.
Seriously, the speaker / room interaction is by far the most important. Those who think otherwise have usually had the benefit of a room that is pretty good. Modes, suck-outs and peaks remain a problem irrespective of how good your source is, or how long you have lived with them. Getting them corrected is revelatory.
If you have a decent room or one that is treated then yes, source first provided your amp and speakers are not mismatched. but digital audio has reduced the variation that used to exist up front when a handful of turntable/arm/cart combos set themselves apart.
Seriously, the speaker / room interaction is by far the most important. Those who think otherwise have usually had the benefit of a room that is pretty good. Modes, suck-outs and peaks remain a problem irrespective of how good your source is, or how long you have lived with them. Getting them corrected is revelatory.
If you have a decent room or one that is treated then yes, source first provided your amp and speakers are not mismatched. but digital audio has reduced the variation that used to exist up front when a handful of turntable/arm/cart combos set themselves apart.
DevillEars
Dedicated ignorer of fashion
I still think the source first philosophy makes a lot of sense. See the Naim handbook given out to dealers
The source-first philosophy dates back to the 1960s when analogue was the undisputed king of audiophile source categories.
As mentioned earlier, analogue source components demand high-quality engineering and build as the tolerances required are very tight. Quality and cost were proportionate and entry-level turntables, for example, demanded some sacrifices while high-end turntables carried a price-premium due to the very fine tolerances involved in manufacture.
In these circumstances, the source-first strategy - both in terms of sequence and in budget allocation - made sense.
Also, back in those days, your mainstream audio buyer was not as knowledgeable about other factors that could and did influence sound quality. These factors included understanding of room acoustic aspects such as standing-wave nodes, side-wall reflection-induced phase smearing, etc. Other factors such as speaker cabling, interconnect cabling, and power cord effects were also not fully understood/accepted.
Given the changes to the landscape of audio in terms of digital sources, DSP-based room correction, affordable-but-effective cable options, etc. the relevance of the 'source-first' philosophy needs to be questioned and modified to fit these current factors.
Unless, of course, one is a self-confessed Luddite and is quite happy to ignore any changes that do not support the antedeluvian theories held...
DevillEars
Dedicated ignorer of fashion
+1
Also, another 'integrated system' is the combination of room and speakers - which overlaps with the next 'integrated system' of amp and speakers. This tends to create an 'integrated superset' of room/speakers/amp.
'' Source first'' was surely an advertising slogan...from a turntable manufacturer. A bit like CD and 'perfect sound forever''.
In truth, as has been said repeatedly, it is the speaker/room interface that dominates the sound. Anyone who doubts that should move his/her system into another room and have a listen.
In truth, as has been said repeatedly, it is the speaker/room interface that dominates the sound. Anyone who doubts that should move his/her system into another room and have a listen.
Daniel Quinn
Banned
In analogue , the arm/cartridge still stubbornly clings on with some basis in truth to source first argument .
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
I've done that a number of times - the speaker room interface does not dominate the sound (it contributes like any other aspect) - assuming you aren't rying to use giant speakers in a tiny room and are prepared to position the speakers appropriately.
Daniel Quinn
Banned
I tend to agree .
I recently went from giant room to smallish room . The speakers had to go , once I had got speakers I liked the sound is pretty much as before except the soundstage isn't as big .
Mike Reed
pfm Member
antedeluvian .
Unhappy turn of phrase for England at present, Dave; a multitude of people would readily transport themselves to a time before the current and increasing crisis.
I remember the 'source first' philosophy in conjunction with Linn in the early-ish seventies. Happily there were few contagious theories in the sixties.
Besides, the first source is the electricity supply, and Ivor T wasn't concerned with that.
Avonessence
Hiking Consistency Rapporteur
Source first - What a load of bull
Amplifier first - What a load of bull
Speakers first - What a load of bull
Stands first - What a load of bull
Room first - What a load of bull
The component that has the biggest effect on the sound is the cables, without cables you wouldn't be getting any sound whatsoever. (unless you're a smart alec, with an iPod but that is only good until you need to recharge)
Amplifier first - What a load of bull
Speakers first - What a load of bull
Stands first - What a load of bull
Room first - What a load of bull
The component that has the biggest effect on the sound is the cables, without cables you wouldn't be getting any sound whatsoever. (unless you're a smart alec, with an iPod but that is only good until you need to recharge)
DevillEars
Dedicated ignorer of fashion
Unhappy turn of phrase for England at present, Dave; a multitude of people would readily transport themselves to a time before the current and increasing crisis.
Hmmm... I've been remiss in checking the UK weather of late...
My apologies to any whose sensibilities have been offended.
It would seem that you folk are having a tough winter - what with rain & floods and snow and more snow - and with more on the way...
Sorry.....
dave
Plywood King
No one said they based their business on performance alone.
Forgive me if I don't easily buy into the possibility that an 80 pound CD player will go head to head with the ISIS. Sure, it's possible, just like it's possible there's an extraterrestrial sitting in my back yard right now watching "Are You Being Served?" reruns....just not likely.