What HiFi Throw Down The Gauntlet.

[darrenyeats]

It's the same theory that underpins the transmission of digital data across the world via multiple servers and thousands of miles of cable.

Not quite. Normal data over a network is fully asynchronous and includes many layers (not included on a whim) for resend on error that are missing from HDMI.

The bald fact that HDMI is good enough to be perfect under normal conditions might be true but the justification for believing it is not this simple.

 

[Joe P]

Lou,

Why worry about important things when you can instead direct your rage and finite existence toward trivial and inconsequential concerns, repeated ad nauseam, as though you're some sort of wire-obsessed weirdo?

Joe

 

[formbypc]

The burden of proof is surely upon anyone making a 'definitive' statement on the performance of cables, whether that is

"Reason and theory dictate that they can't be different", or "it technically cannot, so it won't"

Or

"That definitely sounds different / looks better"

Any scientist studying the field who has negative results from his double-blind tests, but statistically-significant numbers of anecdotal positives outwith the tests is surely compelled to accept that those positives form part of his 'data', and to appreciate that something is going on which should be investigated...

 

[formbypc]

The burden of proof is on those who maintain, against all reason, that digital cables can improve (or change) sound quality

... But 'reason' once suggested that the sun moved around the earth. 'Reason' once suggested that cholera outbreaks around London were spread by airborne transmission, but were later confirmed to be from contaminated water.

Isn't your 'reason' just today's version of events, to be later overturned and revised?

 

[maxflinn]

Joe, I posted the link to the WHF piece. It is HiFi news after all!

However I agree it's nothing too serious in the grand scheme of things, as no HiFi subject is .

 

[maxflinn]

Is this based on your theoretical view of cable performance, or have you actually sat down with some cheap / mid-price / eye-wateringly expensive cables and compared them ... ?

formby, isn't it about time that you came clean and told us what section of the HiFi trade you're in?

You want to protect Russ Abbot from 'vexated individuals', a man who has been reprimanded for false claims several times.

You completely ignore all proof given to you on a range of subjects and claim everything and anything might sound different and that science may need to 'catch up' to explain why .

You've been to Russ Abbott's factory.

Who are you really?

 

[Joe P]

Max,

Your posts about wire outnumber your posts on everything else combined. And correct me if I'm wrong -- haven't you filed a complaint against WHF over a cable review?

To the untrained eye this might seem, you know, as though you're obsessed with wire.

Joe

 

[maxflinn]

Max,

Your posts about wire outnumber your posts on everything else combined.

Joe, listening to a bit of music while countering Foo merchants online has become a bit of a hobby for me, as I'm sure it has with several other members here.

And correct me if I'm wrong -- haven't you filed a complaint against WHF over a cable review?

After a complaint of mine to the PCC over WHF's HDMI cable reviews they opened an investigation. All press must adhere to rule 4 of the code of conduct which relates to accuracy.

WHF obviously could provide no proof that HDMI cables offer varying levels of performance in the way that their reviews state, as none exists, whereas I provided plenty of proof that they could not, as it is in abundance.

The complaint wasn't upheld because the PCC said the reviews were the opinions of the author of a given review and not necessarily representative of WHF's views.

Water under the bridge now.

To the untrained eye this might seem, you know, as though you're obsessed with wire.

Joe

You might have a point..

 

[droodzilla]

Any scientist studying the field who has negative results from his double-blind tests, but statistically-significant numbers of anecdotal positives outwith the tests is surely compelled to accept that those positives form part of his 'data', and to appreciate that something is going on which should be investigated...

Not really. Especially if those making the claims can't discriminate in a double blind test. There is simply nothing to explain without hard evidence of an effect (or the explanation lies elsewhere - in the psychology of advertising or group dynamics perhaps).

I would go so far as to say that one well-conducted double blind experiment that yielded a positive result would not be enough too persuade me. Extraordinary claims - i.e. claims that contradict whole swathes of current physical and mathematical theory - require extraordinarily good evidence before they can be accepted as fact. Recall the scrutiny that the recent report of faster than light neutrinos received (quite rightly - a fault in the experiment was discovered, and the claim had to be retracted).

This is where your comparison with other theoretical shifts falls down. Ultimately a new theory was able to embrace and explain the data that the old theory could not accommodate, and assumed the ascendancy. I've studied Kuhn, Lakatos and other philosophers of science so I know the reality is not quite so simple but the heart of scientific progress remains that beautiful dance between the finest logical abstractions of the human mind and the hard unforgiving pronouncements of a reality that is not of our making.

I won't contribute further to this thread as it really is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

Regards
Nigel

 

[formbypc]

formby, isn't it about time that you came clean and told us what section of the HiFi trade you're in?

>>>>> Keep guessing, even though it's none of yer business....

You want to protect Russ Abbot from 'vexated individuals', a man who has been reprimanded for false claims several times.

>>>>> I wish to (sometimes, and whenever it pleases me to do so) defend the reputation of anyone falsely accused, Russ Andrews included. In recent discussion of ASA complaints, in which, let's not forget, the ASA ruled in favour of RA, I objected to more than one instance, RA included (can't recall the other) where firms were subject to ASA scrutiny on the basis of ONE complaint from the public, as this leaves firms open to abuse of the system by individuals of an obsessive nature.

You've been to Russ Abbott's factory.

So what? They have a reception area which is open to the public. I may have been there as an enquirer, a past customer, or in some other capacity, such as a plumber visiting to upgrade their cludgie. I invite you to keep guessing. It's still none of your business.

Why don't you come clean? Are you the individual who complained to the ASA about Russ Andrews?

 

[maxflinn]

So what? They have a reception area which is open to the public. I may have been there as an enquirer, a past customer, or in some other capacity. I invite you to keep guessing. It's still none of your business.

Why don't you come clean? Are you the individual who complained to the ASA about Russ Andrews?

Ha, no, fun as it was, I only complained about WHF.

Do you see your own participation on every single thread discussing digital cables on here, as obsessive?

Also, do you see nothing wrong with Russ Andrew's previous false claims? If not, why not?

 

[formbypc]

Extraordinary claims - i.e. claims that contradict whole swathes of current physical and mathematical theory - require extraordinarily good evidence before they can be accepted as fact.

>>>>> so do they only become 'fact' when they become 'accepted'?

This is where your comparison with other theoretical shifts falls down. Ultimately a new theory was able to embrace and explain the data that the old theory could not accommodate, and assumed the ascendancy. I've studied Kuhn, Lakatos and other philosophers of science so I know the reality is not quite so simple ......

>>>>>>> so when the new theory 'embraces and explains' this data, it's merely confirming what was happening all along, when the old theory still held sway...?

I won't contribute further to this thread as it really is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

Gee, sorry to have dragged you away from whatever else you're doing, clearly something of much greater import ....

 

[Joe P]

Max,

It just doesn't seem healthy to me and <irony> a similar kind of obsession Captain Kirk harboured over a deadly gaseous cloud creature almost destroyed him and his crew. </irony>

Joe

 

[maxflinn]

Max,

It just doesn't seem healthy to me and <irony> a similar kind of obsession Captain Kirk harboured over a deadly gaseous cloud creature almost destroyed him and his crew. </irony>

Joe

Joe, you're a great guy, and I feel that if you look at the big picture you'll see that it's only people saying there can't be differences, on HiFi fora, that are labelled obsessive, yet how many say there can be differences, just as often, yet are never labelled as such?

For food thought it be, perhaps?

 

[Joe P]

Max,

The obsession isn't about what's said; it's about how many times it's said.

I'm just saying that if you put your single-minded dedication to something important -- say saving mountain gorillas -- we'd be up to our pits in silverbacks. Surely this would be more rewarding and fruitful than saving middle-class blokes from the perils of overspending on conductors.

Joe

 

[maxflinn]

Max,

The obsession isn't about what's said; it's about how many times it's said.

Joe, fair point, but with far fewer saying there can't be, than saying there can be, one often needs to repeat oneself .

I'm just saying that if you put your single-minded dedication to something important -- say saving mountain gorillas -- we'd be up to our pits in silverbacks.

Joe

Funnily enough I have such a plan in mind, though it's nothing to do with gorillas..

PS, or HiFi, obviously .

 

[flatpopely]

Max,

Your posts about wire outnumber your posts on everything else combined. And correct me if I'm wrong -- haven't you filed a complaint against WHF over a cable review?

To the untrained eye this might seem, you know, as though you're obsessed with wire.

Joe

Hmm, Max has complained formally against WHF and uses pfm as well to voice his ideology .........Max you need to listen to more music and chill.

Is this thread not against the AUP?

 

[Joe P]

Max,

More than a billion people live in abject poverty, we're destroying the planet's biological capital, and Star Trek was cancelled after its third season when it was supposed to be a five-year mission.

There, three things far more important to get red-faced about than wire.

Joe

 

[Joe P]

P.S. I'm off to help the kiddo with her science fair project, so that's it from me for a while.

 

[maxflinn]

P.S. I'm off to help the kiddo with her science fair project, so that's it from me for a while.

Good stuff, Joe, she'll not be buying expensive things that join HiFi together in the future

I'm outta here for a while too, before the pack closes in .