What does it mean to you to be English?

[Tony L]

But I am able to see how others might not feel the way I do, and not simply despise them for it, nor wish them harm for feeling that way. Can you say the same?

I have zero tolerance for fascism/authoritarianism. Beyond that I’m firmly in the ‘live and let live’ category. Those waving England flags are seldom arguing for tolerance and wider human rights for all IME.

 

[gavreid]

You're going to have work on your trust issues - it was a genuine question. I will assume in the absence of an answer that your post does describe how you feel about being English. Quite damning.

Trust is something you earn, not something you can turn on and off. You've cried wolf once or twice too often I'm afraid.

 

[dweezil]

Being from England and in the subset from Essex i've always struggled to find positives but getting older and travelling i think we're very lucky to be here.

Sometimes think that being overly proud of Englishness doesn't allow people to see the greatness in other countries. Humanity has achieved amazing things as well as being horrifically horrible at times.

I'm getting less proud of being human every year.

 

[stevec67]

I still don't quite understand - I didn't read any of that in his post - but OK.

Well, somebody using phrases like

abstract container for the idiocy of others.

could certainly come across as being superior.

 

[paulfromcamden]

I never thought I’d say it, but I think you guys are being a little bit hard on yourselves and what it means to be English.

I feel there is still an innate English decency suffused with earthy common sense.

England as a nation doesn’t get much love here in Ireland but by and large I like English people. I don’t think you have any more arseholes than any other nation.

.sjb

I think there are two sides to this.

I'm English. I grew up in England. It's obviously shaped my character. I drink tea. Talk about the weather. Find it intolerable to live more than ten minutes from a park. Laugh at Dad jokes. Apologise when someone bumps into me. I like all that stuff. It's who I am.

That's different to the theatre of nationalism. Believing in English exceptionalism. Waving flags at the King. Standing proudly erect to the national anthem.

 

[Tony L]

Well, somebody using phrases like

could certainly come across as being superior.

Not intended as ‘superior’, just trying to articulate an outsider perspective. I feel no connection to nationalism. My life is not defined by nationalism. I reject the enforced constructs (monarchy, elite rule, class structure, religion etc) of the country I was born into. I’d like to think where I was born was the least important or interesting thing about me.

 

[Sloop John B]

I think there are two sides to this.

I'm English. I grew up in England. It's obviously shaped my character. I drink tea. Talk about the weather. Find it intolerable to live more than ten minutes from a park. Laugh at Dad jokes. Apologise when someone bumps into me. I like all that stuff. It's who I am.

That's different to the theatre of nationalism. Believing in English exceptionalism. Waving flags at the King. Standing proudly erect to the national anthem.

I don’t think we’re necessary disagreeing. It’s just that I think there is too little emphasis in this thread about the first part of your post – the good things about being English.

.sjb

 

[awkwardbydesign]

Sometimes think that being overly proud of Englishness doesn't allow people to see the greatness in other countries. Humanity has achieved amazing things as well as being horrifically horrible at times.

Indeed. I have always loved traveling in Europe, ever since hitch hiking to Spain in '67 when I was 18. And with my wife, on a motorbike and later in a car. I generally stay away from popular British haunts, as I go abroad to enjoy the countries and their people. There are good and bad examples of every nationality, my "favourite" being the English women in a Boulogne supermarket complaining that the signs were all in French! I pretended I couldn't speak English.
So, not proud, but sometimes embarrassed to be English.

 

[dweezil]

I think there are two sides to this.

I'm English. I grew up in England. It's obviously shaped my character. I drink tea. Talk about the weather. Find it intolerable to live more than ten minutes from a park. Laugh at Dad jokes. Apologise when someone bumps into me. I like all that stuff. It's who I am.

That's different to the theatre of nationalism. Believing in English exceptionalism. Waving flags at the King. Standing proudly erect to the national anthem.

Life's full of contradictions, i always find last night of the proms a bit distasteful; but at the same time feel guilty about that.

 

[ks.234]

I don’t think we’re necessary disagreeing. It’s just that I think there is too little emphasis in this thread about the first part of your post – the good things about being English.

.sjb

What are the good things about being English?

 

[Finnegan]

I do think that Bill gets a bit muddled up sometimes. Blake's Jerusalem is ill conceived - and he used that revolting tune from the church (Parry/Elgar!) Why?

Agreed, his ‘progressive patriotism’ schtick is flogging a dead horse.

I‘m always tickled when Jerusalem gets belted out at royal weddings and rugby matches in a sea of union flags. Have any of those singing ever really thought about why Blake wrote Jerusalem and what the ‘dark satanic mills’ refers to?

 

[PaulMB]

Not intended as ‘superior’, just trying to articulate an outsider perspective. I feel no connection to nationalism. My life is not defined by nationalism. I reject the enforced constructs (monarchy, elite rule, class structure, religion etc) of the country I was born into. I’d like to think where I was born was the least important or interesting thing about me.

You know, to a poor foreigner like myself, that in itself sounds "very English." Over the years I have known many English people who had a kind of love-hate relationship with their country, many who had decided to live abroad but for whom being "English living abroad" was a key aspect of their self-image.
What is also, in my view, very English, is that you expect and demand a better country and have no qualms about attacking what you don't like in "England." Most people from other countries tend to be more fatalistic and tolerant of injustice and corruption.

As for the "sense of fair play" that has been mentioned many times on this thread, I think it is something you are told, and believe, until the age of about 12. I've lived in England for 15 year and worked for English companies for over 30 years, and I've come across few instances of "fair play" and many instances of cut-throat, no-holds-barred interpersonal dealings.

 

[Bob McC]

R

I don’t think we’re necessary disagreeing. It’s just that I think there is too little emphasis in this thread about the first part of your post – the good things about being English.

.sjb

can you please give examples of good things that are uniquely English?

 

[Bob McC]

You know, to a poor foreigner like myself, that in itself sounds "very English." Over the years I have known many English people who had a kind of love-hate relationship with their country, many who had decided to live abroad but for whom being "English living abroad" was a key aspect of their self-image.
What is also, in my view, very English, is that you expect and demand a better country and have no qualms about attacking what you don't like in "England." Most people from other countries tend to be more fatalistic and tolerant of injustice and corruption.

As for the "sense of fair play" that has been mentioned many times on this thread, I think it is something you are told, and believe, until the age of about 12. I've lived in England for 15 year and worked for English companies for over 30 years, and I've come across few instances of "fair play" and many instances of cut-throat, no-holds-barred interpersonal dealings.

Well said.
I was about to post about the nonsense of the concept of English fair play.

 

[Finnegan]

The OP's question seems to me to be about a 'sense' of Englishness rather than necessarily a 'pride' in Englishness.

Agreed: Ralph Vaughan Williams, fish & chips and William Blake: all quintessentially ‘English.‘ Yet England and the English identity is, by definition, beholden to nationalism
and frequently co-opted by it.

These cultural forms are presented as eternally ‘English,‘ despite Vaughan Williams being an anti-war socialist, battered & fried fish being introduced by Jewish immigrants and Blake’s Jerusalem being a howl of rage at the dehumanising effects of the Industrial Revolution.

 

[mandryka]

I feel there is still an innate English decency suffused with earthy common sense.

Do you really mean innate? Learned maybe. But I suppose there are lots of English types, some decent some less so. The Alf Garnet type for example is still to be found, I think.

(I find this unwatchable, cringe making in its realism.)

 

[mandryka]

His lack of any understanding of other's beliefs and feelings, and the self righteous assumption of superiority.

But you're not showing much understanding of Tony's beliefs and feelings, and in doing so you're presenting yourself as feeling self righteous and superior.

I just think there's too much "calling out" which achieves nothing other than a scrap, not enough discretion and delicacy.

 

[Cheese]

Seen from the continent:

- Great musicians, excellent choirs
- Wonderful scenery, we love.
- Cellars with very loud and good music and drunken youngsters
- Excellent beer until 30ish years ago, readily available girls as well
- Very in-your-face people compared to over-polite Swizzies
- Funny HoC shows, especially the guy with the wig
- Great memories of ramshackle F1 teams like Hesketh

 

[richardg]

What are the good things about being English?

Language is a huge bonus. Passport is still reasonably strong, economy is still 5th in world and has been for a long time now, design, logístics, service industries seem innovative, comedy seems to travel internationally, I think even a lot can do their stand up shows in English in France for example, music industry is strong, I think the hard cheeses are the best in the world (I argue this a lot over dinner in France and the ignora ce of our cheese jere is quite interesting).

I am worried, though, that you are asking for examples to just shoot them down? Hope not....

 

[stevec67]

battered & fried fish being introduced by Jewish immigrants

That's not important. Scouse (a stew made from cheap cuts of lamb and a pile of cheap and readily available vegetables) was introduced to Liverpool by Norwegian sailors but now that the Scousers have adopted it it is Liverpool through and through. Same goes for Chicken Tikka Masala, this being the English (if not British) national dish despite being invented in "Indian" (usually Pakistani, but there you are) restaurants sometime in the 70s depending on who you believe.