No one is an island. We like to feel part of a group, and to belong. Feeling proud of your local community, nation, team, democracy, monarchy, cuisine, church, flag, State, invention, multiculturalism, whatever, is a natural extension of that. It may be not be logical or the done thing philosophically but society needs that sense of belonging and ties that bind it together. The alternative is worse.
What does it mean to you to be English?
- Thread starter wulbert
- Start date
Tony L
Administrator
I have no ‘defined sense of Englishness’. I had no power to choose where I was born. I have no use for nationalism or tribalism. These are things to fight, not celebrate. Along with religion I cite them as humanity’s most destructive inventions.
I understand the history of England to a sufficient degree to grasp it is responsible for much of the inequality, brutality and division we see around us today. We have not even outgrown monarchy, let alone centuries of elite class rule and the democratic deficit it requires to function. I find much to like in art, music, literature, science, technology, architecture etc, even if much of the funding for historic eras was rooted in imperialism, exploitation and even slavery. I feel Brexit slammed the door on the world and made everything so much smaller, constrained and even more stupidly right-wing. A tiny nation in decline via an act of deliberate self-immolation. That said humans being what they are there is always worse out there. I’d certainly prefer to be stuck here than Gaza, Iran, Syria, Sudan etc.
As such I’ll never understand national pride. People lining the streets waving silly little flags at billionaire elites, throwing bottles, glasses, tables etc at football matches etc. I have no idea why they do that. All looks like fascism to me.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Which is?
Is that what it really means to you?
Mad Max.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Full of trolls too - they were discovered in England rather than Norway didn't you know?
You're going to have work on your trust issues - it was a genuine question. I will assume in the absence of an answer that your post does describe how you feel about being English. Quite damning.
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
Likewise. I consider Great Britain to be the remains of the English empire, and not something to be proud of. But being English isn't a source of pride either, just an accident of birth. I did nothing to be proud of, and similarly I feel no personal shame for historical actions by the country of my birth. Regret, yes.
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
It must be so depressing being you. How do you even get out of bed in the morning?
Oh yes you do. Tribes are what made us successful, and are the basis of all societies, however primitive or advanced.
Tribes are also destructive. It's a 2 edged sword. Protecting our own tribe necessarily involves suspicion around other tribes, who may not have our best interests at heart. This is the rub.
Tony L
Administrator
Not at all. How much of your life is just burping back up what you were programmed without even thinking about it? I reject that which is stupid or illogical and always find myself in a better place for doing so. I have lived my life on my terms/done my own thing. I never have to defend the indefensible as I am in no way connected to it. “England” as a construct is irrelevant to me. It is just an abstract container for the idiocy of others.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
The OP's question seems to me to be about a 'sense' of Englishness rather than necessarily a 'pride' in Englishness. When I was a kid, I was taught to be proud of being English - I was lucky to be born in the best country in the world. As I grew up, I realised not only that many other places were as good, or better, in various ways, but also that my country had traits it was difficult to admire. I don't feel English, this country is and always has been my home, and my place of birth, but I can't connect with it in the way I can with my home city of Manchester. I feel more connection with Europe than with England nowadays, and I think that's because the bits of this nation I dislike the most seem to be the ones which now define it the most, and the bits it was always possible to be quietly proud of, are subsumed.
I used to like our sense of fair play, and support for the underdog.
I used to like our sense of humour, irony and sarcasm.
I used to like our respect for the rule of law, and our confidence that the law would be applied fairly.
I used to like that, by and large, we were governed by people who wanted to make a positive contribution and do the right thing.
How did we, a nation that helped draft the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, find ourselves making laws which defy international law, and laws which knowingly fail to comply with human rights legislation?
Any sense of 'belonging' has now withered away. Yes, this country is my home, and I still subconsciously relax as I pass through border control on returning, but I can't say I feel much by way of kinship with this country any more.
I used to like our sense of fair play, and support for the underdog.
I used to like our sense of humour, irony and sarcasm.
I used to like our respect for the rule of law, and our confidence that the law would be applied fairly.
I used to like that, by and large, we were governed by people who wanted to make a positive contribution and do the right thing.
How did we, a nation that helped draft the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, find ourselves making laws which defy international law, and laws which knowingly fail to comply with human rights legislation?
Any sense of 'belonging' has now withered away. Yes, this country is my home, and I still subconsciously relax as I pass through border control on returning, but I can't say I feel much by way of kinship with this country any more.
Stemcor
I should be listening to music
Just skimmed this thread. Kirk is the only poster who has touched on identity. We all like to “belong” in some form or another. Family, town, football club etc.
Every Nation has its positive and negative attributes. I’m proud to be English by virtue of the sense of fair play, Tolpuddle Martyrs etc and disgusted by the behaviour of our so called “elite”. My grandmother used to say “the rich get richer and the poor get babies”. I’m happy to fly the England flag but also cringe at what the right-wing have done hiding behind the flag.
As for St George not being English, ask Barbados, Romania, Russia, Greece, Scotland and Ukraine who all have St Andrew. Does it really matter ? How many English saints have there been ?
Every Nation has its positive and negative attributes. I’m proud to be English by virtue of the sense of fair play, Tolpuddle Martyrs etc and disgusted by the behaviour of our so called “elite”. My grandmother used to say “the rich get richer and the poor get babies”. I’m happy to fly the England flag but also cringe at what the right-wing have done hiding behind the flag.
As for St George not being English, ask Barbados, Romania, Russia, Greece, Scotland and Ukraine who all have St Andrew. Does it really matter ? How many English saints have there been ?
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I'm curious which bit of Tony's post you disagree with?
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
My life? As part of the counter culture of the '60s, very little, probably less than you. But I am able to see how others might not feel the way I do, and not simply despise them for it, nor wish them harm for feeling that way. Can you say the same?
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
His lack of any understanding of other's beliefs and feelings, and the self righteous assumption of superiority.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I still don't quite understand - I didn't read any of that in his post - but OK.
Sloop John B
And any old music will do…
I never thought I’d say it, but I think you guys are being a little bit hard on yourselves and what it means to be English.
I feel there is still an innate English decency suffused with earthy common sense.
England as a nation doesn’t get much love here in Ireland but by and large I like English people. I don’t think you have any more arseholes than any other nation.
.sjb
I feel there is still an innate English decency suffused with earthy common sense.
England as a nation doesn’t get much love here in Ireland but by and large I like English people. I don’t think you have any more arseholes than any other nation.
.sjb
Spraggons Den
pfm Member
Unfortunately we can't draw on the brilliance of Ivor Cutler to articulate what it is like to live in England but we do have John Cooper Clarke:
The bloody cops are bloody keen
Bloody keep it bloody clean
Bloody chief's a bloody swine
Bloody draws the bloody line
At bloody fun and bloody games
The bloody kids he bloody blames
Are nowhere to be bloody found
Anywhere in Chickentown
The bloody scene is bloody sad
The bloody news is bloody bad
The bloody weed is bloody turf
The bloody speed is bloody Surf
Bloody folks are bloody daft
Don't make me bloody laugh
Bloody hurts to look around
Everywhere in Chickentown
The bloody train is bloody late
You bloody wait, you bloody wait
You're bloody lost and bloody found
Stuck in ****ing Chickentown
The bloody view is bloody vile
For bloody miles and bloody miles
Bloody babies bloody cry
Bloody flowers bloody die
Bloody food is bloody muck
Bloody drains are bloody ****ed
Colour scheme is bloody brown
Evidently Chickentown
The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes
A bloody bloke got bloody stabbed
Waiting for a bloody cab
Bloody stay at bloody home
Bloody neighbor bloody moans
Keep the bloody racket down
This is bloody Chickentown
The bloody pies are bloody old
The bloody chips are bloody cold
Bloody beer is bloody flat
The bloody flats have bloody rats
The bloody clocks are bloody wrong
Bloody days are bloody long
Bloody gets you bloody down
It's evidently Chickentown
The bloody train is bloody late
You bloody wait and bloody wait
Bloody lost and bloody found
Stuck in ****ing Chickentown
The bloody cops are bloody keen
Bloody keep it bloody clean
Bloody chief's a bloody swine
Bloody draws the bloody line
At bloody fun and bloody games
The bloody kids he bloody blames
Are nowhere to be bloody found
Anywhere in Chickentown
The bloody scene is bloody sad
The bloody news is bloody bad
The bloody weed is bloody turf
The bloody speed is bloody Surf
Bloody folks are bloody daft
Don't make me bloody laugh
Bloody hurts to look around
Everywhere in Chickentown
The bloody train is bloody late
You bloody wait, you bloody wait
You're bloody lost and bloody found
Stuck in ****ing Chickentown
The bloody view is bloody vile
For bloody miles and bloody miles
Bloody babies bloody cry
Bloody flowers bloody die
Bloody food is bloody muck
Bloody drains are bloody ****ed
Colour scheme is bloody brown
Evidently Chickentown
The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes
A bloody bloke got bloody stabbed
Waiting for a bloody cab
Bloody stay at bloody home
Bloody neighbor bloody moans
Keep the bloody racket down
This is bloody Chickentown
The bloody pies are bloody old
The bloody chips are bloody cold
Bloody beer is bloody flat
The bloody flats have bloody rats
The bloody clocks are bloody wrong
Bloody days are bloody long
Bloody gets you bloody down
It's evidently Chickentown
The bloody train is bloody late
You bloody wait and bloody wait
Bloody lost and bloody found
Stuck in ****ing Chickentown