War declared, Israel v Palestine...
- Thread starter Darmok
- Start date
PaulMB
pfm Member
I think sometimes you purposely misconstrue. Here is what I wrote:
"The Anglo-American coup was in 1953, 71 years ago. Iran has been an "Islamic Republic" for 45 years. Your narrative, in which "the West" is responsible for everything suggests that Iranians are incapable of managing themselves. Which I think is untrue and, in a sense, racist. The Shah was solidly supported by an Iranian middle class, the 1978-79 revolution was brought about by the Iranian masses, and after a brief, secular, Kerensky-like interval was taken over by the religious extremists."
Now where do I "justify the corruption and subterfuge of the US and UK....."?
What has "victim blaming" to do with anything?
I never said that "an unelected murder (sic)...represented most Iranians." Did you actually read what I wrote?
Why on earth do you say that I "support genocide and ethnic cleaning (sic) in Gaza"? To attack me since you fail to make valid points, perhaps?
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Yes, I did read what you wrote, you have even re quoted it. You have said the US/UK overthrow of democracy was “untrue” and “in a sense, racist” and you also said the Shan, a man who used arbitrary arrest, torture and murder to suppress opposition, was supported by the Iranian middle class.
This is actually good news - it always was a terrible piece of legislation. It will be interesting to see what Netanyahu does next.
PaulMB
pfm Member
I said that the Anglo-American coup was in 1953, not that it was "untrue." I said that to blame everything on "the West" implies that the Iranians themselves, an ancient and highly cultured people, are unable to manage their own affairs, and that this could be taken "in a sense as racist." I said that under the Shah there was "a middle class," not the entire Iranian middle class, that supported his regime.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
I didn’t say the West is to blame for “everything“. I said it, and the UK, was responsible for the coup. You said the Shah was supported by *the* middle class, not “there was a middle class”.
PaulMB
pfm Member
My exact words: "The Shah was solidly supported by an Iranian middle class,"
But lets drop it shall we? It risks becoming tedious for us and for anybody bothering to read it.
A happy new year to you, Paul.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Palestinians return to north Gaza after Israeli soldiers withdraw
Thousands of Palestinians are returning to the north of Gaza after some Israeli forces withdrew from the area.“The people here sit and sleep on top of the debris where the smell of blood and death is everywhere,” said one woman after returning.
“A lot of massacres have been committed here. The resilience of the people here will always be stronger than the occupation army.”
Despite a lack of food and clean water, another woman said she would “never abandon north Gaza”.
“I will never leave my land and house and family despite the suffering,” she added.
Five Palestinians killed as deadly Israeli raids continue across West Bank
Israeli raids in Azzun and Qalqilya result in killing of five Palestinians while attacks across Gaza continue overnight.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
In unprecedented slaughter of Gaza civilians, US claims Israel is the “victim”
As the death toll in Gaza tops 20,000, Israeli-US lies about Al-Shifa hospital are newly exposed.
Aaron Maté has no hesitation in holding Biden and his administration to account for support for a war on Palestinian civilians that “goes beyond any act of US barbarism in recent memory. Complicit in mass murder, [they] are also engaging in unprecedented levels of deceit, from lying about civilian hospitals to pretending that the perpetrator of a genocide is in fact the victim.”And where is Keir Starmer in all this?
Blaming the victim – the assault on truth in the Gaza war
Aaron Maté argues that Secretary of State Anthony Blinken’s recent statement on the war on Gaza is an outright endorsement…
www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk
Biden administration ? What do holders of these senior positions have in common ?
1. Chief of Staff
2. Secretaries of State, Treasury and Homeland Security
3. Attorney General
4. CIA Dep Director
5. Director of National Intelligence
6. Ambassadors to EU, Germany, India, Israel, Japan, Canada, Denmark, Belgium, Singapore, Argentina,
7. National Security Council
8. Dep National Security Advisor Cybersecurity
and others
1. Chief of Staff
2. Secretaries of State, Treasury and Homeland Security
3. Attorney General
4. CIA Dep Director
5. Director of National Intelligence
6. Ambassadors to EU, Germany, India, Israel, Japan, Canada, Denmark, Belgium, Singapore, Argentina,
7. National Security Council
8. Dep National Security Advisor Cybersecurity
and others
Seanm
pfm Member
Excellent article from historian Adam Tooze, placing the current conflict in the context of European history:
“ Zionism has to be understood as a product of its era i.e. as a settler-colonial project, typical of European global thinking in the late 19th and early 20th century. What is distinctive about it, is that the Israelis are the last group of (mainly) Europeans to engage in the wholesale arrogation of non-European land, justified in their mission by theology, claims to civilizational superiority and nationalism. Of course, land grabs go on, all over the world, all the time. But, in the present day, the Israeli project is uniquely coherent and uniquely unapologetic as an instance of “classic” settler-colonial ideology.”
adamtooze.substack.com
“ Zionism has to be understood as a product of its era i.e. as a settler-colonial project, typical of European global thinking in the late 19th and early 20th century. What is distinctive about it, is that the Israelis are the last group of (mainly) Europeans to engage in the wholesale arrogation of non-European land, justified in their mission by theology, claims to civilizational superiority and nationalism. Of course, land grabs go on, all over the world, all the time. But, in the present day, the Israeli project is uniquely coherent and uniquely unapologetic as an instance of “classic” settler-colonial ideology.”
Chartbook 258 War, peace and the return of history in 2023
In 2023 the escalation of violence around the world was horrifying. As the FT remarked: The anecdotal evidence that war is surging round the world is confirmed by the numbers. A recent report by the International Institute for Strategic Studies documented 183 ongoing conflicts around the world...
adamtooze.substack.com
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Also unique is the funding by another state. I'd argue therefore that it's an expansion of US imperialism under the guise of an older idelogy
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
I‘d argue that US expansionism is done under the guise of a new (economic) ideology, but one which fits in with a wider and older historic imperative. That’s not to say that the funding of state terrorism is anything other than wholly immoral
I think the strength of Tooze’s argument is summed up by identifying “the more or less coercive population movements in the 1940s - the historical context within which the state of Israel (and modern Pakistan, India, Germany, Poland, Czechia to name just the most prominent cases) was formed”, the sheer scale of which was and is “staggering”.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
QNN is reported to have close links with Hamas and Islamic Jihad. I fully realise this is an allegation made of almost any Palestinian organisation but there's also a ring of propaganda to this headline. I'll wait for it to be widely reported elsewhere before drawing any firm conclusions.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Let's face it, Hamas isn't going to allow a pro-israeli network to operate under its authority just like the BBC doesn't employ anyone to the left of Mother Teresa
Tony L
Administrator
Doesn’t surprise me at all. I just felt, as no fan of Blair/Labour, the headline was worth quoting!
FWIW I’m finding it very hard to find a line through this as it is abundantly clear Israel, the UK and US are on the side of racist apartheid, genocide and ultimately the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. That obviously doesn’t make the opposing side morally correct, but there is little doubt who the long-term aggressor is here. I know I am against that, and as such I stand firmly against the politics of my own country. That said I far prefer to stick to promoting humanitarian entities such as Amnesty International, MSF, Red Cross, UNICEF etc etc. They all make my point far better than I am able. I won’t cite QNN again myself.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Sure. ALL media has bias. It's (hopefully!) written by human beings after all. So when there's a story as provocative as "Tony Blair is working for Israel to clear Gaza of Palestinians" I think it's sensible to ask who is reporting that and why. Just the same as I might if there was a story in the Telegraph of Morning Star that raised an eyebrow. That's all.
Nero
Re: Tired
errm, Americans?
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I don't think they're necessarily a problematic news source as long as the context in which they operate is considered.
As I said, pretty much any Palestinian organisation ends up being labelled 'Hamas' and I'm sure it's an effective way to discredit people and shutdown Palestinian voices.