mandryka
pfm Member
The Overton Window isn't wide enough for these questions.
War declared, Israel v Palestine...
- Thread starter Darmok
- Start date
The Overton Window isn't wide enough for these questions.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
I’m not sure I’d describe it as legitimate, but I would question whether we have any right to dictate what form resistance takes. To be very clear, that is not to condone atrocity, but if the Palestinians are to be accorded any agency whatsoever, they have to determine their own future and the road map to attain it, whether or not we view it as productive or morally acceptable.
I do however, certainly view individual acts of terrorism as inevitable when peaceful and democratic resistance becomes impossible. There was a huge and growing civil rights movement in Ulster in 1969 that may or may not have gone on to achieve some measure of success. This was the opportunity to win both Catholic and Protestant to peaceful mass resistance. Bloody Sunday and Ian Paisley closed down that avenue and ceded the field to the terrorism/ armed struggle of the IRA. The inevitability of war was then assured.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
This is the big question.
A great deal is made of Hamas’s denial of the right to exist of Israel, but Israel must also recognise the right to exist for a Palestinian state
droodzilla
pfm Member
It was a very good interview.
I highly recommend @paulfromcamden - and every member here - listens carefully to Finkelstein's answer to the question posed at the 12:30 mark. It's powerful, nuanced and goes well beyond the ultimately sterile "Will you condemn..." debate.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I watched it a little earlier (skipping Piers Moron obv). Being a wet middle-class peacenik centrist I couldn't completely agree with everything he said but I absolutely agree with his premise that if people are oppressed and feel they have nothing left to lose don't be surprised when they lash out. Something that's only going to get worse in the near term unfortunately.
droodzilla
pfm Member
The bit from 12:30 is the most powerful part.
It's a variant of the "There, but for the grace of God go I" sentiment, with the added resonance that Finkelstein's parents were themselves concentration camp survivors (with many members of their family not being so lucky).
I'm a peacenik too, at heart.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
Yes, both Finklestein and Ash Sarker provide a powerful articulation of why the right to determine the response to brutal oppression resides with the oppressed.
It reminded me of those photographs of the concentration camp guards being set upon by former inmates upon liberation. Yes, it’s horrific to observe the fear on the guards’ faces as they realise they are about to be torn limb from limb. But if I was present I would not have attempted to dissuade those inmates from so doing on the basis that it was morally questionable.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Yes very much. It's my overwhelming response whenever I read the news at the moment.
Thank **** it's not me watching my child being blown to pieces.
Thank **** it's not my premature baby fighting for life in a pitch black hospital with no electricity.
Thank **** it's not me wondering if my kidnapped mother is even still alive.
It's probably why I get a bit tetchy at the teeth sucking and quibbling over semantics. In the face of so much suffering I just don't care. I just wish the violence would stop. But there doesn't seem any prospect of that.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Israel reprimands the Irish Ambassador because…
“The Irish taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, spoke of the end of a “cruel torture” for Emily’s family. “An innocent girl who was lost has now been found and returned, and our country breathes a massive sigh of relief,” he said.
Varadkar’s comments drew an angry response from Israel’s foreign minister Eli Cohen, who wrote on social media: “Mr Prime Minister. It seems you have lost your moral compass and need a reality check! Emily Hand was not ‘lost’, she was kidnapped by a terror organisation worse than ISIS that murdered her stepmother.”
www.theguardian.com
“The Irish taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, spoke of the end of a “cruel torture” for Emily’s family. “An innocent girl who was lost has now been found and returned, and our country breathes a massive sigh of relief,” he said.
Varadkar’s comments drew an angry response from Israel’s foreign minister Eli Cohen, who wrote on social media: “Mr Prime Minister. It seems you have lost your moral compass and need a reality check! Emily Hand was not ‘lost’, she was kidnapped by a terror organisation worse than ISIS that murdered her stepmother.”
‘Overjoyed’: nine-year-old hostage Emily Hand returns to family in Israel
Relatives say they ‘can’t find the words to describe our emotions’ as Israeli-Irish girl comes back from Gaza
mandryka
pfm Member
When he says "there but for the grace of God go I" what I think he means is "If I were in there situation, I would do and feel likewise."
It's really about human nature. Maybe saints wouldn't act in a barbaric way. But not everyone's a saint and moral standards, if that concept makes sense at all, may be setting the bar unrealistically high (the last part is me speaking, not Finklestein!)
gavreid
Pretty Words...
US seeks to expand Israeli access to US weapons stockpile
The White House aims to lift nearly all restrictions on Israel’s access to weapons from a crucial US stockpile, enabling a smoother weapons pipeline to Israel.
The White House asked the US Senate to scrap the restrictions in its latest supplementary budget request on October 20.
If granted, the request would enable Israel to access more high-powered US weapons at a reduced cost, with less congressional oversight.
Read more here.
dave charlton
pfm member
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Israel to allocate millions in budget for settlements: Expert
The Israeli government’s budget is being allocated to the “maintenance and expansion” of settlements in the occupied West Bank, says an Israeli humanitarian law and policy consultant who monitors the settlements.The coffers include approximately $41m, which will be distributed as follows, according to a social media post by Itay Epshtain:
- $25.4m for settlement construction,
- $10.6m to search for and destroy humanitarian aid projects in Area C of the West Bank,
- and $5.3m for West Bank military academies.
Somafunk
pfm Member
The current government and lacky’s have absolutely no intention of entertaining the idea of a peaceful resolution for a possible two state solution, this is only going to further inflame tensions.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
This one's a real shocker:
People are being killed in Gaza more quickly than in even the deadliest moments of US-led attacks in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, the New York Times has found following a review of past conflicts and interviews with casualty and weapons experts.
Other findings:
Pace of death in Gaza war has few precedents in this century: NYT findings
People are being killed in Gaza more quickly than in even the deadliest moments of US-led attacks in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, the New York Times has found following a review of past conflicts and interviews with casualty and weapons experts.
Other findings:
- More than twice as many women and children have already been reported killed in Gaza than in Ukraine after almost two years of Russian attacks, according to United Nations estimates.
- The bombs being used in Gaza are larger than what the United States used when it was fighting the ISIL (ISIS) group in cities like Mosul and Raqqa, and are more consistent with targeting underground infrastructure like tunnels.
- In the first two weeks of the war, roughly 90 percent of the munitions Israel dropped in Gaza were satellite-guided bombs weighing 1,000 to 2,000 pounds, according to a senior US military official who was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.
PaulMB
pfm Member
Egypt had blockaded the Straits of Tiran, which under International Law counts as an "act of war" before Israel's pre-emptive attack on the Egyptian air force.
At the same time, Egypt had massed its army along the border with Israel, and Nasser was making bellicose speeches against Israel.
Funny how you cling to this myth, this supposed technicality, which in any case does not hold water, that Israel "started" the 1967 war.
The whole world knew for many days that Egypt and Syria were going to attack at any moment, with the declared purpose of destroying Israel.
It wasn't Levi Eshkol telling the world "We are going to invade and destroy Egypt, we are going to invade and destroy Syria." It was the other way round.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Indeed. The paper I linked to yesterday is very clear:
"For Israel the 1967 war was, on the face of it, a the classic defensive war fought
for security: on the eve of the war, Israel was surrounded, Egypt had provided several
causus belli and the war is usually described as a pre-emptive one; Israel struck first
because war seemed inevitable. And yet the evidence is clear that Israel was not
seriously threatened militarily. Popp, 14 on the basis of recently de-classified
information, shows that 1967 was a war of choice, and that Israel had a premeditation
to commence hostilities since the balance of forces made a military defeat virtually
impossible. The Israeli generals were "spoiling for a fight" 15 Even less was it a pre-
emptive war--heading off an Egyptian attack--since Egypt had no intention of
attacking.16"
monkfish
pfm Member
Tommy Robbo arrested at a pro Isreal march, also in attendance Boris the bad, nut nut, Vanessa Feltz, Rachel Riley etc.
www.theguardian.com
British Jews ‘will not be intimidated’, says chief rabbi at London march
Far-right leader Tommy Robinson arrested at protest against antisemitism attended by up to 60,000 people
droodzilla
pfm Member
Good article from a liberal Jewish author, exploring her inner conflict:
www.theguardian.com
Includes some thought about why the author did not feel comfortable attending today's march "against anti-Semitism".
It might not seem like it, but I feel sad for British Jews being forced to come to terms with what Israel has become. The myth of a safe haven has been replaced by a hellish far-right state that feels compelled to slaughter thousands of Palestinian children in order to survive.
It's enough to cause severe cognitive dissonance in all but the most gung-ho supporter of Israel.
The awful horror of the Hamas-Israel war is creating deep divisions far beyond the Middle East | Eva Wiseman
The impact of the violence 3,000 miles away is leaving lasting scars on our Jewish communities and families
Includes some thought about why the author did not feel comfortable attending today's march "against anti-Semitism".
It might not seem like it, but I feel sad for British Jews being forced to come to terms with what Israel has become. The myth of a safe haven has been replaced by a hellish far-right state that feels compelled to slaughter thousands of Palestinian children in order to survive.
It's enough to cause severe cognitive dissonance in all but the most gung-ho supporter of Israel.