War declared, Israel v Palestine...

[gavreid]

ICC decision on arrest warrants expected in weeks​

The ICC prosecutor’s request for arrest warrants for Israeli and Hamas leaders will now go to the court’s pre-trial chamber.
They have to decide if the arguments that Karim Khan, the prosecutor, mentioned as reason for the arrests are valid. Then they will look to see if the ICC has jurisdiction and if there is a valid reason to arrest these people.
There is no fixed timeline. But if we look at the case last year – arrest warrant for Putin – it took around three weeks between the request and the actual decision. So we are expecting this to happen in a few weeks.
After arrest warrants are issued, 124 members of the ICC have the obligation to arrest these people when they come to their countries.
Countries like the US, China, India, and Russia are not members so they do not have this obligation, but other countries do. This includes many European countries, including Germany which has very much been supporting Israel.
Such countries have been put in a precarious situation because they have to think about what their position will be.

Israeli attacks across Gaza kill 85 in a day, including several children

Medical sources say drone attack targeted Yibna refugee camp in Rafah in southern Gaza, killing at least three children.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[gez]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1791378518275740077

A simply wonderful piece of passive protest in Cambridge. The total blanking of far-right Tory extremist Braverman and the Tories vile oligarch-funded propaganda channel. A total refusal to engage with these monsters or allow them to set the narrative. The perfect response IMHO.

Most of them are of the internet generation, they recognise a troll when they see one.

 

[gavreid]

Israeli forces shell gates of Kamal Adwan Hospital​

[Those pesky Hamas rockets misfiring again...]

Israeli tanks have fired several rounds at the gates of the emergency department, Wafa news agency reports, citing Hossam Abu Sfiya, the director of the hospital in Beit Lahia, north Gaza.
Local sources also report that the hospital is currently being evacuated of wounded, patients and medical staff.
The hospital has been under siege by Israeli forces since May 19.

Israeli attacks across Gaza kill 85 in a day, including several children

Medical sources say drone attack targeted Yibna refugee camp in Rafah in southern Gaza, killing at least three children.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[gez]

Case in point (from an American-Israeli journalist):

These people are genocidal lunatics.

Last I heard Nazis were rounding up people they didn't like and sticking them either in Ghettos or death camps etc. Any evidence of any ICC members doing that or even espousing that such things should happen?

 

[gez]

Makes you wonder what Israel would have to do in order to be condemned by USA or UK. Perhaps there is no limit.

#sitdownorwe'llstealyourland

I suspect anything short of a nuclear strike, they'd find a way to accept and agree with Israels justifications. That said, I suspect that Israel is aware that it may lose the backing of other western powers (France, Germany etc), and definitely would lose the "turning a blind eye" of the likes of China and Russia, should they decide to mount any form of armed incursion in to any Arab state sovereign territory, be it by land or air or misile strike. On the presumption said states didn't blow anything up or injure or kill any Israeli national.

 

[gez]

France says it supports the independence of the international criminal court (ICC), after its prosecutor requested arrest warrants for leaders from Israel, including prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and those from Hamas.

In a statement released late on Monday the foreign ministry said “France supports the international criminal court, its independence, and the fight against impunity in all situations,” reports Agence France-Presse.

Israel-Gaza war live: France backs ICC after prosecutor seeks arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Hamas leaders

International criminal court’s chief prosecutor has applied for arrest warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu, Yoav Gallant and Hamas leaders Yahya Sinwar and Mohammed Deif

www.theguardian.com

Doesn't surprise me. While clearly France doesn't have totally clean hands in this issue, they do have a history of taking a different view of the middle east and it's conflicts to the UK and the US, more so than Germany even I feel.

Remember the ironic renaming of "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries"?

(ironic in case anybody doesn't know that the French played a major part in helping the pre US colonies gain independence from Britain in the first place).

 

[gavreid]

Doesn't surprise me. While clearly France doesn't have totally clean hands in this issue, they do have a history of taking a different view of the middle east and it's conflicts to the UK and the US, more so than Germany even I feel.

Historical supporters of Israel - gave them nukes!!

 

[ks.234]

France has a long history of supporting zionism against Arabs. At least up until the Algerian war was over

 

[mykel]

The thing with the ICC is it is 100% evidence based. They have the receipts to back up every single point made. Biden, Sunak, Labour Friends Of Israel etc are all collectively denying reality and cheerleading genocide. History will call them all out.

That may be the case. In the end the calling out may happen and something may come of it. History is not on our side past the possible calling out. Kissinger?

However, my point still stands. Foreign policy cares not a whit about morals, it is all about state power. If those two happen to align, then something moral may happen, but just remember it was not about the morality of the situation, but the gathering, consolidation and application of state power.

Until this paradigm changes, people will continue to be nothing but disposable pawns in the chess-game.

 

[tones]

One of the arguments against this is that it's equating the state of Israel with a terrorist organisation. It seems that the concept of a terrorist state is one that many don't wish to embrace, especially when said terrorist state is an ally (well, sort of). Apartheid South Africa was such a state. Israel is now arguably such a state, especially when you see its own tendency towards apartheid and read stories like this:

Israeli soldiers and police tipping off groups that attack Gaza aid trucks

Exclusive: Members of security forces giving settlers who intercept vital supplies information on location of convoys, group says

www.theguardian.com

But that's the problem, how does one take action against a terrorist nation-state, given the inviolability of national borders (unless you're Russia or China, of course)? And especially in the case of Israel. It was said that Teddy Roosevelt described the elder Somoza of Nicaragua in the terms "I know he's the sonuvabitch, but he's our sonuvabitch"). Israel is the US's sonuvabitch, so nothing will come of it - and the US is not a member of the ICC anyway (largely out of fear of what might happen over events in Iraq).

 

[gavreid]

One of the arguments against this is that it's equating the state of Israel with a terrorist organisation.

This is in fact a misunderstanding that many people are making. It's subtle but the court is saying that it will give equal scrutiny to the actions of the leaders of both sides in deciding whether offences have been committed i.e. nobody is beyond the law. That is not the same thing at all at this stage. What else could it say really, apart from nothing?

 

[-alan-]

One of the arguments against this is that it's equating the state of Israel with a terrorist organisation. It seems that the concept of a terrorist state is one that many don't wish to embrace, especially when said terrorist state is an ally (well, sort of). Apartheid South Africa was such a state. Israel is now arguably such a state, especially when you see its own tendency towards apartheid and read stories like this:

Israeli soldiers and police tipping off groups that attack Gaza aid trucks

Exclusive: Members of security forces giving settlers who intercept vital supplies information on location of convoys, group says

www.theguardian.com

But that's the problem, how does one take action against a terrorist nation-state, given the inviolability of national borders (unless you're Russia or China, of course)? And especially in the case of Israel. It was said that Teddy Roosevelt described the elder Somoza of Nicaragua in the terms "I know he's the sonuvabitch, but he's our sonuvabitch"). Israel is the US's sonuvabitch, so nothing will come of it - and the US is not a member of the ICC anyway (largely out of fear of what might happen over events in Iraq).

Would the argument there not be that the ICC can only look at crimes committed by Nation states - and hence it is the inclusion of actions by Hamas (itself not a state entity) that is wrong here ?

 

[gavreid]

Why is the west defending Israel after the ICC’s request for Netanyahu’s arrest warrant?​

Kenneth Roth

"Khan is the ICC’s most experienced chief prosecutor of the three to date. My conversations with him from early in his tenure suggest his approach to his job is conservative. He is unlikely to have pursued charges without solid evidence behind them, as found by a panel of independent experts whom he assembled. The court’s pre-trial chamber is likely to affirm the charges and issue the requested arrest warrants, meaning that the accused could not travel to any of the ICC’s 124 member states, including all of Europe, without facing probable arrest."

Why is the west defending Israel after the ICC's request for Netanyahu’s arrest warrant? | Kenneth Roth

It is disappointing, if not surprising, that the west’s response to the ICC accusations was to defend Israel despite its war crimes

www.theguardian.com

 

[Tony L]

Very interesting interview with a human rights lawyer and the prospect of the likes of Sunak, Cameron etc finding themselves on the end of some war crimes charges. Again evidence based. The definitions are clear. The criminality is clear. These people are who they are.

 

[-alan-]

Insightful take on the US reaction to the ICC prosecutor's announcement on the intention to issue arrest warrants from Beau of the 5th:

In essence - leaving aside the specifics of who is being arrested for what - it would create a precedent for the head of a state that does not recognise the ICC's jurisdiction to be charged for actions against state or non-state actors in another country that does.

Agree to that in principle, and any and every US president in the future accused of 'war-crimes' in any one the other 124 States that are party to the Statute of Rome stands open to being similarly charged and subject to arrest.

 

[droodzilla]

The obvious solution is not to do war crimes.

 

[-alan-]

True. Just thinking a little further on Beau's analysis above - if he is correct that it's primarily about the principle at this stage, that would surely mean that the US would have to similarly condemn the ICC's issue of an arrest warrant for Putin relating to his action in Ukraine - no ?

 

[davidsrsb]

Any action by the US against the ICC should lead to the ICC being dissolved with compensation for all previous convictions. The African view that the ICC is a tool of colonialism would be proven. We would then be in a world with no rules except violence. Not a good place to be.

 

[Pirx]

But we mostly are in a world with no rules except violence. For 500 years we were arbiters of truth and were delivering the justice which aligned with our and our corporations interests. Now, we are facing situation where our powers are somewhat limited and we have an equal opposing force. That was never the case before. ICC rule is simply a reflection of that fact. It would be unthinkable 25 years ago. Israel wasn't born yesterday and his modus operandi was not invented after October 7th . It was always the same. The external calculus changed and US is no more all almighty after seemingly loosing all the conflicts it was engaged in in last 50 years.

 

[gavreid]

Insightful take on the US reaction to the ICC prosecutor's announcement on the intention to issue arrest warrants from Beau of the 5th:

In essence - leaving aside the specifics of who is being arrested for what - it would create a precedent for the head of a state that does not recognise the ICC's jurisdiction to be charged for actions against state or non-state actors in another country that does.

Agree to that in principle, and any and every US president in the future accused of 'war-crimes' in any one the other 124 States that are party to the Statute of Rome stands open to being similarly charged and subject to arrest.

Hardly the world's greatest democracy! The funny thing is that many/most americans believe it to be- what they real are is the world's judge, jury and executioner...